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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » It went "Phfft!" (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: It went "Phfft!"
Rick Long
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 759
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 10-07-1999 10:14 PM      Profile for Rick Long   Email Rick Long   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
BTW You've left me wondering, what was the feature you were showing the night the system (as well as the train) crashed; "Greatest Show on Earth"?, "Silver Streak"?, "The Fugitive"?, "Casandra Crossing"? ,"Lawrence of Arabia"?, "The Great Locomotive Chase"?

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 10-08-1999 09:05 AM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The 1K resistor may take care of most of the problem! I installed it, and tried it out with the spare amp just now. Now, I have the volume on the mixer turned up wide open with the amp set at just above half-full volume. Before, the mixer was set at about 6. With the exciter voltage cut, there is less bass thump, but I still have to keep the bass level all the way down. I will get the caps now and see what happens. I borrowed a decent meter last night to check for transient voltage. As I suspected, there is none, so this kills the bad ground theory. I still wonder about a static zap though. This system ran for several months daily with no problems. Dont want it to happen again. I thank everyone for your interest and opinions...Even you, David. <grin, hehe>

Now, here is what I am up against. You "real" operators are going to think this is pure Rube Goldberg stuff. Go ahead and laugh. I do.

There was no amp / exciter supply for this machine when I got it. I found that the original exciter lamp is obsolete and expensive. I decided to go with what ever I could find around the house to get me running.

I am using a 1156LL auto-type bulb as the exciter. Has not burned out the first one yet. I am using a 3 amp regulated DC power supply that I made by copying one that a friend has. It runs the lamp at about 11 volts, now, as compared to 12.4 before this thread started. The lamp filament is aligned with the slit lens. I get a good white light at the slit with no yellow or bluish light. The beam is uniform across the slit. I check the lamp focus regularly, because of possible filament sag. No problem to date.

The solar cell is snatched from a junked Eiki. It is exactly 1 1/2" from the film surface installed inside the original PE cell enclosure. It is on a straight line from the filament, lens slit. I experimented until I got the sharpest sound by adjusting the cell angle while running a mono print over and over... It has several minutes of piano music in the reel...

I dont know if this is exactly the way to go with this, but I am at a loss because there is no place for me to install the cell that Brad sent me close enough to the slit opening to achieve real stereo (sort-of) without getting stray light. This was designed in the '40's and does not use a conventional sound drum.

Can I get a larger solar cell? The face of this one is just about 1/4" across. I've always thought that if I could shine the entire beam of light on the cell I might get better, more equalized sound.

Sorry if this is running on and on. I have never designed a system from scratch before.

I have a single 5000k SMPTE loop. My levels (read across speaker output) were set at the highest level that I could get while adjusting the slit focus. I think it sounds good. Beats 16mm to death.

I appreciate all of your opinions here.

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 10-08-1999 06:44 PM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is finished. A friend donated an old graphic equalizer to the Holmes cause. Between the resistor, and the adjustments I made with the EQ, the controls are all set at normal. The spare amp sounds fine, and the excessive bass is under control. Maybe my Sony is not as well-built as a PA amp after all...

Thanks guys for all the suggestions and solutions. I do appreciate it.

Bruce McGee

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-08-1999 07:23 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
for what it is worth
A solar cell is a current source device not a voltage source
The better preamps for solar cells use it in the current mode IE it runns into a shortcircuit
Bang and Olfsen discovered this fact back in the seventies and built a mag cartridge phono preamp around it
Kintek (even there mono preamps) PanaStereo, Eprad DSS(not the starscope) and a mono system that LP used to flog used this method

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Pete Lawrence
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 192
From: Middleburg, PA
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 10-08-1999 08:07 PM      Profile for Pete Lawrence   Email Pete Lawrence   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am doing the same as you, building up the sound system from almost scratch. The only real difference is I am using DeVry XD machines instead of Holmes. You should pick a solar cell that is big enough to capture all the light from the exciter. This may complicate one of your problems and produce a higher signal voltage but I think it will improve the sound quality by reducing distortion. I rebuilt my old PE tubes into silicon solar cells. You can get the unmounted cells from www.digikey.com for a good price. The one I am using is a PDB-C609-2. Measures about .25" square and costs $7.75. They also sell a PDB-C613-2 that should be about .37" square for $11.00.
These are just square pieces of silicon wafer with leads that must be mounted to something. I used RTV and a small piece of circuit board. Then put the whole thing in the old photo tube base so it plugs in. Output goes to the resistor capacitor network that was previously described. I used 470 ohms across the cell, a series cap and a two resistor attenuator. The series capacitor is important in that it blocks the DC coming from the solar cell. It's less than a volt DC, but should be kept out of the preamp. I am going into a Shure mike mixer then an old transistor amplifier. There is no hum that I can detect, even with headphones. The exciter is an old 5 Volt regulated DC supply on a normally 6 volt exciter lamp. Sound is only mono but with really nice fidelity. There is no hope of converting this to stereo with just a change to a stereo cell. There would be no separation between the left and right channels.

Which brings me to another project. Does anyone have one or two old used reverse scan pickups? They don't even have to work, I just need the optics.

If the UBB code works, below is a picture of the photo cell conversion.



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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 10-08-1999 09:47 PM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I printed the last post to save the address. Your solar cell in a socket looks a hell of alot better than mine. The Eiki cell is still mounted on a piece of plastic with a hole thru it. It fits by friction on a sharpie pen barrel installed and glued into the tube socket base. I pre-wired the base with 2 copper insulated wires to carry the signal.
I understand the difference between current and voltage. I have never had the chance to work on a B&O anything, though I have seen many of them in use.

It is amazing what you can come up with when you have to do it cheap. My first projector was almost a DeVry XD. I had no way to go get it in NJ at the time, so I let it go. The Holmes came from Virginia and it fell in my lap--sorta--after I dropped $$$ in the sellers hands. He got me exactly what I was looking for. fixer-upper. It has good steady sound, and a more stable image with the addition of a thin washer on the lateral guide above the gate.

Good luck with the XD. Can we see it?

Bruce

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 10-10-1999 02:40 PM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When converting from phototubes to solar cells, don't forget to clip the 90V... just a thought.


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Sheldon Harris
Film Handler

Posts: 16
From: Chicago, IL USA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-10-1999 10:33 PM      Profile for Sheldon Harris   Author's Homepage   Email Sheldon Harris   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
After reading all the above problems and seeing what you are going through, I consider myself very luckey. I purchased my 35mm Super Simplex with an RCA Soundhead which originally used a photo tube. The conversion consisted solely of a mono solar cell put in the place normally occupied by the photo tube. It was friction fitted into the tube's case using a wad of tissue paper behind it. When I purchased the unit no amps came along with the equipment. Finding two leads coming from the solar cell, I connected them to mic cable and ran it into the mic input of an old tape deck which has a volume control, from the tape deck output I split the line into a stereo equalizer.... from which one channel then goes to a mono amplifyer and to the center speaker, the other channel from the equalizer goes to an old Kenwood 4 channel receiver (remember SQ and Discrete in the 70's) and to the left and right front speakers and two rear speakers. I'll cut to the chase.... without any regard to matching impedances, using resistors, capacitors or whatever, I'm getting great sound, no hum and my audiences rave over it... luckey me.

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 10-12-1999 06:51 PM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here is my last post on this subject. I got the 2 IC's installed in the Sony, it works again.

I have just hooked it back up to the Holmes thru the new EQ, and resistor changes. I played a 35mm TV show that arrived today. Sounds fine. Made a cassette copy of the audio. It was fine also.

You guys have done it again! Thanks!
Bruce McGee

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Geoffrey Weiss
Film Handler

Posts: 68
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: May 2001


 - posted 06-06-2001 10:35 AM      Profile for Geoffrey Weiss   Email Geoffrey Weiss   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You guys rock! I'm new to collecting and just acquired a Super Simplex w/ Simplex sh-1000 soundheads. I'm learning as I go and your conversion stories have given me beaucoup ideas.

Can anyone recommend a basic electronics book that would bring me up to speed on the discussion in this thread? I've found several good websites and a couple of books, but I always like to use what worked for the experts.

Geoff Weiss

PS. Only a few weeks on the list and Brad Miller is my new hero!

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Bill Langfield
Master Film Handler

Posts: 280
From: Prospect, NSW, Australia
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 06-06-2001 11:12 AM      Profile for Bill Langfield   Author's Homepage   Email Bill Langfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Geoff,
Brad is my hero too.
But do yo have to say it out loud!!

Bill.

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 06-06-2001 03:32 PM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow. This one again!

I can say that the Sony has been returned to stereo use. For the first time it is hooked up as the center of the home entertainment system.

I went back to the Dynaco Stereo 70 and the Sony pre-amp, with the Realistic mixer and EQ.

Recently I finally had a chance to hear a film with the Holmes in a booth. I was horrified to find that the sound is not as fine as I thought. I think that the cell is being blinded by the excessive area of light on its surface. I should get a bigger cell, OR just go with the PE cell, and hook it to the Holmes amplifier that John Anastasio gave me.

The #2, and #3 Holmes... an 8, and an Educator... sound great with PE cells, and the original amp. Much better than I anticipated. I got these machines in the fall of 2000.


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