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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » 70mm Six-Track vs. Digital (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: 70mm Six-Track vs. Digital
Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-17-2000 07:59 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>"Actually it was purchased and installed six weeks before I ever set foot in the place. My expertise has been in concert and live theater amplification so I have had to do a little modification to my own techniques.
We have a DTS-6D with a SMART Mod-2C and five SMART TA2050 amps. It rocks for the most part but the speakers are not the best, or are the amps. Not what I would have chosen but you make do with what you have. So far the sound is pretty damn good but I think it needs a better speaker array.
So forget the amplification, what about speakers.. what would you all say would be the best to go with?"<<

There is a saying about a system being no better than your weakest link... SMART is definately "entry-level" equipment and the processor is definately contributing to your overall sound (as are the amplifiers).

As to the speakers...it really depends on your room. If your room is somewhat dead then direct-radiator type speakers should work fine, if it is live, you should look into horn-loaded systems.

I am not sold on the 3-way concept for cinema sound, it spreads the sound image quite a bit in the vertical dimension, quite un-necessarily. 2-ways systems can generally work for most any theatre.

My favorite direct radiators are the JBL 4675 and the Altec A-6 (No longer available). For horn-loads, I am a die-hard Altec person...A-4s and A-5s but you have to get rid of the Multi-cells and install Altec Manarays (or even a JBL 2360 horn)

The above are opinions so your preference may not agree. I suggest going to some theatres that have different types of speakers in similar rooms and hearing what you think sounds best for you.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Bruce Hansen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 847
From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-17-2000 08:04 PM      Profile for Bruce Hansen   Email Bruce Hansen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Audio compression is accomplished by splitting the freq. spectrum into pieces. The pieces that don't have much in them are discarded. In the case of music: a lot of instruments can play the same note (the same fundamental freq). What gives each instrument it's "sound" is the harmonic content. Harmonics are multiples of the fundamental (higher freqs.) at lower levels. This is what the compression system is getting rid of. This is why something seems to be missing - it is! Mini disc has the same problem. Personaly, I think that if you are not going to digital right (without compression) then leave it analog. Sound IS ANALOG. Your ears cannot hear digital, your brain could not figure it out. The only reason to record in the digital domain is to remove artifacts of the storage media from the output, but digital compression artifacts (I think) are worse.

Bruce Hansen

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Ari Nordström
Master Film Handler

Posts: 283
From: Göteborg, Sweden
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 01-18-2000 05:40 AM      Profile for Ari Nordström   Email Ari Nordström   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>"So forget the amplification, what about speakers.. what would you all say would be the best to go with?"<<

I personally like the JBL 4675, and have good experiences using them. Also, the old Altec A7 was a good speaker for its day, even though I wouldn't try to use them for digital sound.

But good speakers must have the right amps. My experience is that speakers and amps should always be chosen in pairs, because there are speakers that simply won't sound good with the wrong amps. I once tried the LAB500 (THX-approved) amp with the Altec A7, but the sound was never good, no matter what we did.

The JBL 4675's installed in my theatre are biamplified with LAB1000 amps, which seems to be a good combination.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-18-2000 03:09 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Smarts Amplifiers are made by AB INternational and are identical to the AB branded ones and are very high quality. The Mod 2C is only providing eq and a fader when running from a DTS and the 2c is available with 1/3 or 1 octave eq. The 1/3 is a very good eq card as I have used it many standalone systems
What make were the speakers and crossover unit?
I think you either have a bad crossover/speaker or bad tunning
but the 2c is a good performer I have installed many of them

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Erich Loepke
Film Handler

Posts: 43
From: Ft. Worth, TX, USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 01-18-2000 03:22 PM      Profile for Erich Loepke   Email Erich Loepke   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To me, if the ultimate goal is the best quality possible, then go with analog. The digital hardware necessary to compete with an equivalent analog system is just too expensive. That's why there is so much data compression used these days. In the rush to make EVERYTHING digital, it has to be somewhat affordable, and that means compression and its many side effects. Digital can be OK if it's done right, but it rarely is. Digital it touted as a fix for bad human habits. We have CDs because a majority didn't take care of their LPs. We'll get DLP becuase too many theaters are too cheap, have untrained operators, or just don't care about good film presentation. The cure can be worse than the disease, however.

What about SDDS? "8 channels of pure discrete digital sound". Sounds great, but from what I've read on this forum, it isn't. I'd rather have one good channel of glorious mono than eight channels of garbage.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-18-2000 03:31 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually, the sound quality of SDDS is fine when it is working properly. The problem is that it seems to be the flakiest of the digital sound systems, so dropouts are fairly common.

Personally, I can't stand the sound of a "fault" to optical in a digital sound system. I've seen several films where the film was run from a platter and there was a dropout at ever reel-change splice. This effect is particularly bad due to the large number of theatres that don't maintain their optical A-chains to very high standards.

Given the choice, I'd rather hear a film in a properly aligned SR system than in DD or SDDS with two or more faults. DTS seems to be the most reliable (and flexible) of the digital sound systems, except when the disks aren't shipped with the print.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-18-2000 06:37 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>"The Mod 2C is only providing eq and a fader when running from a DTS and the 2c is available with 1/3 or 1 octave eq. The 1/3 is a very good eq card as I have used it many standalone systems
What make were the speakers and crossover unit?
I think you either have a bad crossover/speaker or bad tunning
but the 2c is a good performer I have installed many of them."<<

I'll stand behind my statement...the SMART equipment are strictly entry level. The ModIIC is what it is, a cheap processor but one can hardly say it is a "good performer." It has shown to be a bit more reliable than some of the other SMART processors but sound wise, it is quite lacking. It's level of quality will most definately affect the quality of the analog AND digital processor connected to it.

>>"I personally like the JBL 4675, and have good experiences using them. Also, the old Altec A7 was a good speaker for its day, even though I wouldn't try to use them for digital sound."<<

You are right, the A-7 isn't a good choice for digital except in the smaller review rooms (40' deep or less) but upgrading it's HF driver and horn to make it an A-5 will make it into a solid performer in small to medium sized rooms). I've done it many times...including pulling direct radiators out (JBL actually) because the room didn't work with that style of speaker.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-18-2000 06:44 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>"Audio compression is accomplished by splitting the freq. spectrum into pieces. The pieces that don't have much in them are discarded. In the case of music: a lot of instruments can play the same note (the same fundamental freq). What gives each instrument it's "sound" is the harmonic content. Harmonics are multiples of the fundamental (higher freqs.) at lower levels. This is what the compression system is getting rid of. This is why something seems to be missing - it is! Mini disc has the same problem. Personaly, I think that if you are not going to digital right (without compression) then leave it analog. Sound IS ANALOG. Your ears cannot hear digital, your brain could not figure it out. The only reason to record in the digital domain is to remove artifacts of the storage media from the output, but digital compression artifacts (I think) are worse.
Bruce Hansen"<<

There is much wrong with your above statements and MANY MANY double-blind tests on analog vs digital recording to disprove your statements, including the ones about digital compression (including lossy and loss-less) but a more appropiate forum is the group on rec.audio.high-end and rec.audio.tech. There is a gentleman over there by the name of Dick Pierce that can explain it far better than I.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Erich Loepke
Film Handler

Posts: 43
From: Ft. Worth, TX, USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 01-19-2000 03:52 AM      Profile for Erich Loepke   Email Erich Loepke   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
<<"Personally, I can't stand the sound of a "fault" to optical in a digital sound system. I've seen several films where the film was run from a platter and there was a dropout at ever reel-change splice. This effect is particularly bad due to the large number of theatres that don't maintain their optical A-chains to very high standards.">>

I guess they don't feel a properly adjusted analog A-chain is necessary when they have digital sound. No sound system past, present, or future is perfect. Digital is not perfect, despite what Madison Avenue says. What good is digital sound if it's too quirky? The Dolby Digital and SDDS tracks occupy the worst locations on the film where they are subject to damage by the film gate and rollers that does not affect the picture or analog sound track.

Too often, digital solutions seem like technology for technology's sake. In other words, it's attempting to fix something that really isn't broken. The other problem I have with digital audio and pictures is the bar is set too low with regard to quality. "Let's design a system with the minimum acceptable level of performance and market that" are the watchwords of the digital industry. Analog is simple; few things to go wrong. Digital is complex by its nature; lots to go wrong.

When was the last time anyone heard the term "high fidelity" applied to a sound system? It's been a while. The new term is "CD-quality". High fidelity means a reproduction as true to the original as possible. Not "something that's kind of close" to the original like compressed digital audio. Maybe most people can't tell the difference in a double-blind test, but that's no excuse for calling such a system the best available. Maybe that's why "hi-fi" isn't used anymore; digital audio really can't make that claim, especially today. Compressed audio can not and never will be able to claim that it's "hi-fi". Not when sound is DELIBERATELY not reproduced.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-19-2000 11:41 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve I would rather have a Mod2c than a CP45 anyday of the week
They are usually not the culprit

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Nic Margherio
Film Handler

Posts: 91
From: St. Louis MO, USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-20-2000 01:49 AM      Profile for Nic Margherio   Email Nic Margherio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A year or two back, I read a news tidbit on the Movie Sound Page (www.moviesoundpage.com) about DTS developing a new system based on the DVD-ROM. Since then I have not read or heard a single thing about it. Has anyone else heard of this? Is it actually in development? The prospects of such a system would be very exciting indeed. Just think, 10 discrete channels, loss-less encoding, and DTS's superior reliability. Its enough to make my mouth water.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-20-2000 06:35 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>"Steve I would rather have a Mod2c than a CP45 anyday of the week
They are usually not the culprit"<<

Gordon:

I don't know where the CP-45 came into all of this and I don't know how the CP-45's performance or lack thereof has any bearing on the Mod IIC performance or lack thereof?

Is your arguement that "I would rather have JUNK than CRAP?"

I'm sure an argument can be made that either is better or worse than the other in various respects.

I could probably give the CP-45 the edge in all areas except equalization. And depending on the quality of the installer, a bad installer will get into less trouble with full-octave than 1/3.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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