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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Aperture plate filing (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4 
 
Author Topic: Aperture plate filing
Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 02-07-2000 09:11 AM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, it sounds like you have the wrong aperture plate for that machine. Depending on what kind of projector you have, it *could* be in upside-down; but I don't think you would have the problem you describe, if this were so.

Could it be that it was never filed properly to begin with? Skillful filing (by someone who knows how to file plates) will compensate nicely for the off-angle projection.

Again, before any filing is done, a target film should be used, to determine exactly what the situation is.

Take care!

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-07-2000 11:06 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom:

Since the projector is at an angle to the screen, I suspect you are seeing a form of geometric distortion known as "keystoning". In effect, one side of the screen is farther from the projector than the other, so it has a slightly larger image. Minor keystone distortion requires bring the masking in to cover the uneven edge. Significant distortion will require moving the projector to be more centered relative to the screen.

A useful tool for calculating lens focal lengths, screen curvature and distortion factors is available from Schneider Optics. It actually simulates the design of a theatre, and graphically shows any distortion due to the design. Check out their "Theatre Design Pro" software at:
http://www.schneideroptics.com/theatre/desprodn.html

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Professional Motion Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Martin Frandsen
Master Film Handler

Posts: 270
From: Denmark, Europe
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-07-2000 04:54 PM      Profile for Martin Frandsen   Email Martin Frandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The keystone effect is a big problem in the new 'Monsterplexes' being buildt in my country, and with 'stadium seating' being very popular here the projector has to get even higher up in the ceilling in order to project over the heads of the patrons wacthing the movie. That makes everything even worse. Why not 'tilt' the screen a bit towards the seatings (lowest part of the screen) that can avoid keystoning?

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 02-07-2000 06:38 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I worked in a very old theater where the screen was tilted to avoid keystoning. The projectors had a 30 deg tilt. The pedestals wouldn't go as far as was needed, and were bulit up to tilt them more. A real pain to thread- thank god I only worked relief.

A tilted screen still looks weird for the audience, but at least the image is improved. Can't use a gain screen though.

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 02-08-2000 10:22 PM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tilting the top of the screen back, to compensate for excessive projection angles, used to be fairly common practice. I remember in the big, older theatres it was really not that noticeable (the tilting). But then, you had all the other fixtures like drapes, proscenium arch, etc.. to draw your eye off the anomaly.

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Richard Hamilton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1341
From: Evansville, Indiana
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-08-2000 10:48 PM      Profile for Richard Hamilton   Email Richard Hamilton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is amazing how aperture plates seem to shrink over time!!! In response to the original post:
William, please don't file any of your plates. Please have your tech look at them first. If you have inward bulges on the side, I would guess that the duvatine material has shrunk, and your side masking is no longer straight.

As to Tom Kroening's problem:
Tom, I would guess by what you said that plates have been switched around from one projector to another. You said that you even switched plates with another projector.

My advice is that all aperture plates should be attached to a chain that is bolted to the wall and will only reach the projector that it is filed for. Maybe a deadbolt so that they can't be switched???

My last gripe is to everyone that chimed in and gave advice on filing plates!!! After this thread, going to the movies will be like going to Disneyland where the film plays around you in 360 degrees!!!

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 02-08-2000 11:39 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Richard,

Please remember there are techs who do not file plates out the way they should be for fear of too much spillage. Also, there are plenty of projectionists who are trying to learn. I think the guys here made it pretty clear that this was not something to be taken lightly and he should check with the tech. Still, if he felt it had to be done (many times a manager will give the instruction to do so), at least he's got a few tips and he doesn't go out with a power drill or something crazy.

For Tom's problem, most techs will scratch the number of the projector to the back side of the plate when filing them initially. Tom, you might want to check for this and if not, mark them once you get them all sorted out.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-09-2000 01:08 AM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I do have to agree that "working" on aperture plates is a last resort. I guess that I automatically assume that people know that I'm thinking you've checked everything else. (Your masking is okay, etc.)

When our theatre was first opened, we didn't get all the projectors running right until right before opening night. (As usual) Some of the plates were filed rather hastily and there were some 'burrs' on the edges of a couple of them. That's why I recommended using an emery board. It's good enough to get the burrs off but not so aggressive that it'll open up the hole unless you really "have at it". But, again, I assume that the other person has the intelligence to understand things like that.

Maybe, these kind of assumptions are premature?

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Richard Hamilton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1341
From: Evansville, Indiana
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-09-2000 08:14 AM      Profile for Richard Hamilton   Email Richard Hamilton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Never assume anything!!!
As for the marking of plates, almost all of the theatres that I work on that don't have turrets, have the aperture plates numbered.
Does this help?? In most cases yes, but there are a lot of times when I find both lenses and plates moved around. I had one manager who moved the lens and plate with the print!!! She thought everytime she moved a print that the lens and plate went right along with it. Its really amazing that she didn't ship the lens out with the print. I assumed that this woman had a brain!

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-09-2000 10:03 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
All the comments posted here are right on target. I'll add a few others as well:

- Don't cut your existing plates; order new ones ($6 apiece for Centurys; probably a lot more for oddball projectors) and cut those. That way, if you screw something up royally, you can still go back to the old plates.

- Get the proper test films. If you don't have a spare $200 for a roll of RP-40, you can make a loop of SMPTE Universal Leader (the clock-sweep type) and a few feet of film with DTS timecode. The smaller (inner) circle in the countdown defines the 1.85:1 upper and lower borders and the edges of the frame define (roughly) the left and right borders of the 1.85 frame. The loop of film with DTS will help make sure that you don't cut too far on the soundtrack side. The left and right borders of the SMPTE leader are also similar to the L and R borders of the scope frame, although the top and bottom borders are higher and lower for the scope frame (you'll have to cut this by eye, paying attention to splice visibility). The Academy frame (1.33) is the format for the SMPTE leader, so you can pretty much cut to match that entire frame. I don't have a good reference for 1.66:1 top and bottom limits, but you can sort of guess this; you don't have to worry _too_ much about getting 1.66 and 1.33 prints with DTS.

- Allow a lot of time and patience. Aperture plate cutting isn't much fun, but the results can be rewarding. I've cut four sets (all formats, two projectors) of plates using only loops of SMPTE leader and old trailers and existing masking settings. It took about two weekends and wasn't fun at all, but the on-screen image was greatly improved.

Good luck.

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Nick Perry
Film Handler

Posts: 19

Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 02-26-2000 01:23 AM      Profile for Nick Perry   Email Nick Perry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You recently noticed your plates need to be cut? Were they O.K before? If so breaking out the files is a common mistake. Appeture shadows can caused through a number of minor things that occur over time. Before you file an appeture check a few things,

1) Check your mirror alignment.
It is possible when aligning the mirror to bring it in so far that you get shadows on the side.
2) Check your apperture alignment. Can you alter the alignment settings to fit the screen evenly? E.g it's auto-stop position.
3) Has your projector moved? It will over time particulary if it is a new installation.

These few points should always be checked before you bust out the files.
If you go ahead and file the appeture and it is one of these things you will waste a lot of time and probably end up with a badly over cut apperture which is very anoying.

If it's none of these, good luck!


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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 07-05-2001 02:26 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I came accross this old thread and wanted to add my two cents.

Some of the best files on the market for doing this type of work are Grobet tm. They are not cheap, and should be a standard item in any good lapidary store. This company does produce an assortment of non-tapered safe files. So what does this mean? Non-tapered simply means just that, the file body does not have a taper, and all surfaces are perpendicular. Safe means that one or more surfaces of the file body do not have any cutting teeth. This is perfect when filing 90 degree corners! Another feature of Grobets is that they also produce files that have square-non-radiused corners. Another asset when cutting 90 degree surfaces!

A little about file care and safety:

One of the biggest mistakes that people tend to make when storing files is to throw them together into a drawer unprotected. This is the quickest way to dull and damage files. Always store them in their individual pouches so that they do not rub against each other.

Aperture plates are made of a soft leaded brass that produces fine chips that will easily clog a file. One of the oldest machinist tricks on the books is to pre-load the file with common chalk-board chalk prior to filing. This will prevent the file from becomming clogged. A soft tap on a block of wood, and a few swipes with a good file card will remove the debris. Yes, the file needs to be reloaded with chalk every time it is cleaned. Please note that I did mention to use a file card!

A note about file safety:

Never use a file without some type of protective handle, many serious accidents have happened due to people not having protective handles on files!

Always use protective evewear. Never touch your eyes without washing your hands first! This type of brass produces fine chips that can seriously injure your eyes in a heart-beat!

Remember the motto: Take care of your quality tools, and they will take care of you!

Happy filing!



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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-05-2001 02:37 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Will's last post:

"I came accross this old thread and wanted to add my two cents."

Then how about sharing your two cents with the rest of us?

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 07-05-2001 02:52 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry Brad!

I was typing as you submitted your reply. My computer gliched and erased my message. I had to fool around with the edit and submit functions. Is there a way to save messages while typing?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-05-2001 02:55 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes there are two ways of doing this.

#1 Never press the "submit" button before you finish typing. Your first message said "ravgrgiua". Then you next message was my quote above. This means you had to have pressed the "submit" button at least three times to achieve your post above. The simple answer...just don't press "submit" until you are done. This is not a race, and as such there is no reason to get a post up before anything is typed.

#2 Compose the post in a text editor and then paste it into the reply box via EDIT/PASTE commands.


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