Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » We're getting a digital projector for 'Dinosaur' (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: We're getting a digital projector for 'Dinosaur'
Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-22-2000 02:16 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
It's the same thing back when theaters would have 2 prints of a movie. One screen being in 70mm and the other in 35mm. People have NO IDEA what 70mm is, they just know that if the theater went to all that trouble to put up the "this is the 70mm screen" signs then it simply MUST be better. These are the same customers who will continue to come back to that theater completely convinced that everything they will ever see in that certain auditorium will ALWAYS be in this wonderful "70mm thing".

If these theaters were to put in a DLP projector beside a 35mm house and put up signs saying "see it in 35mm film", people would not go to the DLP auditorium.

It's a trick.

 |  IP: Logged

Erich Loepke
Film Handler

Posts: 43
From: Ft. Worth, TX, USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 04-22-2000 11:01 PM      Profile for Erich Loepke   Email Erich Loepke   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How about a double blind test to see if audiences really can tell if DLP is better or not? I suppose you could have a 35mm and DLP setup side by side and not tell anyone about it. Then you could either run the film in 35 or DLP without the audience knowing which and find out what the audience members thought of the digital presentation. I'd bet at least a few people would say "it looked great" when the FILM was being run and "it looked alright" when it was DLP. Of course, the 35 setup will have to be run correctly (no out of frame starts or dirty film).

Just a thought...

 |  IP: Logged

Dustin Mitchell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1865
From: Mondovi, WI, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 04-22-2000 11:39 PM      Profile for Dustin Mitchell   Email Dustin Mitchell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Possibly technicaly impossible, or at least too hard to do to make it worthwhile, but could one set it up so that a icture was halved, each half being from the different projector? You'd need special apature plates, and maybe a half douser or something so the plate wouldn't heat up to much, but if pulled off correctly watching one half of the screen in digital and the other in film would settle the argument once and for all. Of course the digital people won't allow that, since they own all the projectors.

 |  IP: Logged

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-23-2000 03:35 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually the digital people use that exact same "split screen" demo! Of course, they cheat by using a larger lamp behind the DLP projector than the 35mm had and they use old beat to crap prints to run beside their un-compressed digital presentation. That 35mm demo film was just in plain nasty condition!

If anyone from TI still maintains they were running a 3000 watt lamp against the 35mm's 4000 watt lamp in the demo I participated in back in Dallas, might I remind you one does not run a 3000 watt lamp at well over 150 amps. (I saw the meter myself.)

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-25-2000 10:05 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dustin:

To their credit, the "split screen" is how Texas Instruments showed their DLP Cinema projector at ShoWest in March. Most felt that film looked better for tone scale and color in the clips from films like "Snow Falling on Cedars" and "American Beauty". The film images were very good for sharpness, steadiness and cleanliness. If you sat in the front section of the Celebrity Theatre, you noticed the pixels and "jaggies" on the digital projector. But IMHO, the prototype TI DLP Cinema projector did "win" for the digitally originated "Toy Story 2" material. For the "Toy Story 2" clips, Texas Instruments chose to show a "typical" worn release print that had severe base-side scratches, hoping to leave the impression that this was the norm.

Rumor has it that TI asked Boston Light & Sound not to use their "top of the line" Kinoton film projector for the demo, but BL&S did a fine job with an older Century projector. Perhaps Larry Shaw can verify.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

 |  IP: Logged

John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 04-25-2000 01:50 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Texas Instruments chose to show a "typical" worn release print that had severe base-side scratches.."

"Rumor has it that TI asked Boston Light & Sound not to use their "top of the line" Kinoton film projector for the demo..."

This (if true) is the kind of stuff that drives me crazy. If theater owners would just take care of what they already got...

I mean, I not totally opposed to all-electronic production and distribution. I'm just tired of rigged tests.

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-26-2000 06:06 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John:

I did NOT mean to imply that Texas Instruments "rigged" the tests. There ARE more Century projectors than Kinoton in the United States, and prints can be mishandled and scratched. My friends at TI were naturally trying to show off their projector in the best light.

Rather than "rant" about digital cinema, we "film people" need to make film and film presentation as good as we know it can be. Poor film presentation is an excuse for digital cinema. Good film presentation is a major challenge to them. The future is in our hands.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

 |  IP: Logged

John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 04-26-2000 08:16 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes- I'm sorry... My use of "rigged" was probably a poor choice of word. But I want to compare apples to apples. If TI has pulled out all the stops to make their projector look good, why can't "film" be allowed to do the same? While I might agree with allowing a Century, (rather than a Kinoton)- how pre-scratched was the print? (rhetorical question.) Who's to say that what a "standard" scratched print looks like?

I think distributors are now more interested in controlling their product than improving it- somewhat like Microsoft. While still a bit far away, they can "smell" the advantages of digital distribution for piracy, preventing box office "undercounts,' and other information logging. (There also seems to be a standoff over who's going to pay for it.) I wouldn't be surprised if the majors have a loose "gentleman's agreement" to not release anything new in 70mm- it might look too good and de-rail e-cinema.

Anyway, I just get cranky without my coffee, so sorry about that....!

 |  IP: Logged

Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 766
From: Ogden Valley, Utah
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 04-26-2000 09:39 AM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So... how about this for digital cinema? You know how the big movies open in the big house at the multi-plex and then, within a couple of weeks, they get passed down to the small house? And, by then, perhaps the print is scratched... or whatever?

Why not turn all the small houses into e-cinema houses. That way, we get the best of both worlds and the public WILL accept it. I mean, if we're to assume that a "typical" print is trashed after a couple of weeks anyway...

Or... the distributors could give the multiplex one film print (for the big house) and one "digital" print (for the small house). They could open on the same day that way. Then, when the grosses go down a bit, they just drop the film print from the big house. This way, the distributor only has to make half as many film prints (and they save money) and the digital system is only showing on the smaller screen (which makes the customers think the quality is outstanding) and... would this not make everyone happy? If you want to see the film version, just make sure you see the movie during its first couple of weeks.

 |  IP: Logged

Larry Shaw
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 238
From: Boston, MA, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 04-26-2000 10:56 AM      Profile for Larry Shaw   Author's Homepage   Email Larry Shaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John, you heard right. Supposedly some of the TI marketing people weren't too happy that we keep our Century's tweaked up pretty well.

-Larry

 |  IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-27-2000 11:31 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
HI Lary,
I loved hearing about that showdown with T.I. at Showest this year. They certainly have many decades to go before they will catch up to film.
I was involved in a screening for Ultimatte at the SMPTE HDTV Conference a number of years back at Allstate Headquarters. After a full day of HDTV demos and seminars it was time to run Ultimatte's film.......All I can say is you should have heard the oohs and aahs when the film hit the screen. It was really a riot and afterwords all the Japanese folk came to the back of the room to look over my Century C and tried to figure out why the film was soooooo much better than any video that day. Oddly all were interested in when the machine was manufactured. Very tounge in cheek I told them it was made in the late 30's.
Mark

 |  IP: Logged

Zach Tomcich
Film Handler

Posts: 2
From: Berkeley, California, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 05-05-2000 12:53 AM      Profile for Zach Tomcich     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Blakesley:
Paul's comment about the TI DLP standee got me thinking. I read in Film Journal about how when a film plays in two houses, one digital and one "film," the digital house has WAY more patronage. They are trumpeting this as an advantage of digital. Well, HELLO!! If you put up a big sign saying "see it in digital," OF COURSE the people are going to want to check that out, what with digital being the "buzz word" of the new millenium!

I'll always go out of my way to experience digital projection. This has nothing to do with any buzz words about our new digital society. The reason i prefer digital projection is that it just looks better. More accurately, it looks a sh!t-load better!

My eyes are sensative to screen flicker. I can usually see dirty prints, scratches, and just the annoying flickering of the projector during bright scenes. DLP got rid of this. Even though the resoluation was not as sharp as film, i think the overall presentation was vastly superior in DLP.

I think trying to argue that film projection is better by comparing resolution ratios is like trying to compare LPs to CDs using frequency responces.

I was so impressed with the smooth, flicker free and scratch free movie projection that i'll go way out of my way to experience it for any other movie. As an avid movie goer, i look forward to the demise of film projection.

-Zach Tomcich
aka Ziggy
Audio Engineer
Berkeley Repertory Theatre



 |  IP: Logged

Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 05-05-2000 01:17 AM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Zach-

And LP's sound MUCH beter than CDs, and ANYTHING sounds better through tube amplification...

Vive La Film!
-Aaron

 |  IP: Logged

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-05-2000 05:28 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Zach my friend, I feel so sorry for you in that you must've never seen a truly good film presentation. I know they are becoming hard to find these days, but if you are ever in the Denver area, please allow me to demo just how basic 100 year old technology will beat the pants off of the latest digital technology of today.

Ever seen 70mm by the way?

 |  IP: Logged

Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-05-2000 08:51 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
FYI, the GCC Framingham (MA) 15 will be getting a digital projector for "Dinosaur." I don't know what type, but it's probably one of the DLP systems.

Yes, I'll probably go to see it, but I'm starting to think that the recent DLP screenings are somewhat "rigged" to show the virtues of DLP for showing material that originated in digital form. In this case, I wouldn't be surprised if DLP looked better than film projection, although it's impossible to make a proper comaprison since (to the best of my knowledge) no one has done a public demo of DLP using material that was originated on film and not processed digitally, aside from the first reel of Star Wars.

And I will guarantee that proper film presentation (even 35mm) will blow away DLP for a film-originated show. And proper 70mm presentation is a completely different and far better experience than either!

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.