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Author Topic: 35mm Film Collector's Forum here?
Josh Jones
Redhat

Posts: 1207
From: Plano, TX
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 05-15-2000 08:40 PM      Profile for Josh Jones   Author's Homepage   Email Josh Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry, It's my fault for being a newbie, but what are HIAC and "vinigar syndrome"?

Josh

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Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 05-15-2000 08:57 PM      Profile for Ken Layton   Email Ken Layton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
HIAC is short for History In A Can (www.historyinacan.com)

Vinegar Syndrome is a form of film deterioration noted for its strong vinegar smell when you open the film can. It renders films un-runable and it can spread to other films in your collection.

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David Koegel
Film Handler

Posts: 55
From: Alexandria, VA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-16-2000 06:06 AM      Profile for David Koegel   Email David Koegel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just a note to the many newbies or non-professional 35mm operators (or wannabees). I saw Eric (webmaster for HIAC) on Saturday, and he told me that he's gonna figure out a way to keep the 35mm forum going in some way, shape, or fashion. And for the "dumb" questions, the 35mm forum there is the best place to post. (Of course, we all know that there are no dumb questions, only dumb answers )

I feel pretty much as Scott Balko feels that I'm just wasting the time of the folks here for some of my questions when HIAC is a lot more "forgiving" of the newbie question -- that is, I'd say that many of the lurkers and users of HIAC are fairly new to 35mm, are collectors and not 35mm professionals, and are thrilled to help others using the knowledge that they had only recent gained.

But Film-Tech is great for me when I have a question that only the pro's can answer, like what's the difference between a Cat 280T and a Cat 350 card, for instance. (Thanks, Brad, for that answer )

I'm hopeful that the 35mm forum on HIAC will continue and even more hopeful that some of the folks here that have never visited that site will start to do so (in their spare time, of course) to help with the really difficult questions.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-16-2000 06:21 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Vinegar Syndrome" is degradation of cellulose triacetate film base caused by hydrolysis. In simple terms, over a prolonged period of time, moisture causes a breakdown in the cellulose triacetate chemical structure, releasing acetic acid (the source of the vinegar smell). Once vinegar syndrome starts, the acid formed accelerates the degradation, and also increases the fading of the image dyes.

The best way to prevent vinegar syndrome is to store the film properly. SMPTE Recommended Practice RP131 recommends cool and dry storage for long-term film storage. Low humidity storage reduces the amount of the moisture that initiates hydrolysis. Cool storage greatly reduces the rate of any chemical degradation reaction. Using vented storage (acid-free boxes or vented cans, NOT sealed cans) prevents the accumulation of acid vapors. It is good practice to inspect and "exercise" (carefully rewind or project)stored film periodically, which also helps release any buildup of acid vapors. The presence of iron (e.g., from magnetic striping or rusted film cans/reels) tends to accelerate vinegar syndrome.

Kodak developed "Molecular Sieves" which are packets of a special material that adsorb moisture and acid. Placing molecular sieves in sealed film cans adsorbs excess moisture and any acids, greatly retarding vinegar syndrome. Kodak recently won an Academy award citation for the invention of Molecular Sieves.

For more information on Molecular Sieves, see Kodak's FPC website:
http://www.fpcfilm.com/US/en/motion/FPC/fpc/mole.html

For information on the storage and preservation of motion picture film, see the Kodak web site:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/care.shtml

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Mitchell Cope
Master Film Handler

Posts: 256
From: Overland Park, KS, United States
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-16-2000 07:41 AM      Profile for Mitchell Cope   Email Mitchell Cope   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John Pytlak said "Placing molecular sieves in sealed film cans adsorbs excess moisture and any acids, greatly retarding vinegar syndrome."

I'm using molecular sieves on a feature that has Vinegar Syndrome. The feature is very runnable but does not wind tightly on the reel. Anyway, I've had this feature in sealed cans since August (with the sieves, of course). I've opened reel 1 just twice since then to run it. What should I expect from the sieves. The odor is still there, no worse, no better. While I know the sieves won't cure VS, I had hoped that the smell would be alleviated to some extent. What's normal?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-16-2000 08:33 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mitchell:

For films that have already begun to deteriorate with vinegar syndrome, the molecular sieves adsorb moisture and acid, thereby reducing the level of the two things that accelerate the reaction. The amount of odor is not a reliable indicator of how much acid is present.

As the molecular sieves adsorb moisture and acid, they gain weight. The weight gain can be used as an indicator of how much they have adsorbed, and when to replace them as they become saturated. It may be that film had so much acid that the molecular sieves quickly became saturated. To find out the amount of weight gain you might expect to see with saturated molecular sieves, compare the weight of a fresh packet, and one that has been exposed to a humid environment (e.g., damp basement or steamy shower) for about a week.

Since you know your film already has vinegar syndrome, it is especially important to store it in a cool place, and periodically wind/project it to "exercise" it.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Dustin Mitchell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1865
From: Mondovi, WI, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 05-16-2000 09:43 AM      Profile for Dustin Mitchell   Email Dustin Mitchell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So how is film collecting legal if the studios don't like it? Don't the studios own all the prints? Or have they sold some?

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Mitchell Cope
Master Film Handler

Posts: 256
From: Overland Park, KS, United States
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-16-2000 11:07 AM      Profile for Mitchell Cope   Email Mitchell Cope   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dustin Mitchell wrote "So how is film collecting legal if the studios don't like it? Don't the studios own all the prints? Or have they sold some?"

My understanding is that when the studios tried to make a case against actor Roddy McDowall for having a private film collection, his defense was that the studios often let prints go into private hands. For example, directors have often given prints away to friends. With such common use proven typical, the studios couldn't make their case.

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Frank Rapisardi
Film Handler

Posts: 96
From: Methuen, MA, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 05-16-2000 01:15 PM      Profile for Frank Rapisardi   Email Frank Rapisardi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
collecting 35mm.What I don;t understand;and the older I get it seems to me that I don't understand much anyway!If most 35mm prints are destroyed after their theatrical run and end up in landfills costing someone money;why not sell them to collectors?Usually by the time they have finished first run and second run showings,many are beat anyway!Footage missing,scratched to hell and so forth.At about this time they are ready for cable,and DVD and video stores.Hollywood has had a long practice of protecting film as if it were gold!"This is our only American Art form" to quote Jack Valenti. PLEASE give me a break!Galaxy Quest ART!DUR;Godzilla;ART right, Congo shmongo!Star Wars the Phantom Menace yea right the list goes on and on,Does anyone remember "The greatest 35mm piece of art in history?Plan 9 From Outer Space"with pie plates tied on sring;these were the flying sauces.Great American Art.The only thing Hollywood and theaters care about is the art (portrait of Washington on the dollar bill.)Wow was I long winded!

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Mitchell Cope
Master Film Handler

Posts: 256
From: Overland Park, KS, United States
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-16-2000 04:54 PM      Profile for Mitchell Cope   Email Mitchell Cope   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's just been announced that Jeff Joseph is taking over ownership of the 35mm forum. Maybe life's not so bad after all. Congratulations and thanks Jeff!

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Jason R. Weinsteiger
Film Handler

Posts: 34
From: Kutztown, PA, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 05-17-2000 10:07 AM      Profile for Jason R. Weinsteiger   Author's Homepage   Email Jason R. Weinsteiger   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
i've heard of film depots auctioning off prints, although my boss tells me that there's no way they are allowed to do that. So if a film depot held a print auction and prints were purchased by someone, what's the legality there?

jasoN

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"That's what life is - a series of down endings. All Jedi had was a bunch of muppets." -Dante Hicks

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 05-18-2000 07:29 AM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Film depots "destroy" older prints (wink, wink, nudge, nudge).

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Better Projection Pays!

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