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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » I've heard of not leaving a reference frame, but this is rediculous! (Page 5)

 
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Author Topic: I've heard of not leaving a reference frame, but this is rediculous!
Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-23-2000 08:30 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Unfortunately, with the lack of standardization today, I think reel 2 would have to continue to have the ID frame.

Dustin Mitchell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1865
From: Mondovi, WI, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 05-23-2000 08:40 PM      Profile for Dustin Mitchell   Email Dustin Mitchell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It wouldn't need to be reel two, just one reel in addition to the first and last without ID frames.

Dustin Mitchell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1865
From: Mondovi, WI, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 05-23-2000 08:49 PM      Profile for Dustin Mitchell   Email Dustin Mitchell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ah, but I have realized the error of my ways. If this ever becomes widespread and someone ends up making a composite print that happens to have two reels (not the first and last) that don't have the ID frames, then the whole system is shot.

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-24-2000 08:57 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with Brad that maintaining continuity (NO lost frames) should be the goal. If leaving a single "reference frame" on the head and tail leader assured correct reel identification for the life of the print, I could accept that, BUT in practice, I bet most unskilled operators CUT off the reference frames anyway, rather than peeling the splice. IMHO, leaving more than one frame is overkill, and very distruptive to continuity. Let's not "Idiot Proof" our way to mediocrity!

The best idea to come out of this discussion is to splice a "reference frame" into the body of the leader. I believe this would be done by the film editor/negative cutter, and not the laboratory. It's worth re-introducing at the SMPTE Projection (P3) and Lab Practices (L6) committees. There also was once an attempt to have a SMPTE Recommended Practice to write the film title and reel number on the edge of the sound negative about 10 feet (3 metres) into the body of each reel, and print it through with the printer edgelight. Unfortunately, this is impractical today, because SDDS occupies that area of the print.

FWIW, the discoloration sometimes seen in the first frame of picture may be due to changing the printer lights (color balance) between the TAPE setting needed for the leader, and that for the first scene. If the color change cue is at the splice, the printer may take a frame to actually change the color balance to the correct one for the scene. Obviously, if the first/last frame is off-color, it should not be shown.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 05-24-2000 10:09 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John P wrote: -"Let's not "Idiot Proof" our way to mediocrity!"

I'm laughing a bit, because (although it sounds harsh), that is _exactly_ what I am doing.

While printing a reference frame in the leader is a good idea, how long would it take to get it through P3 and L6 committees (rhetorical question)? And studios haven't exactly shown a big interest in helping theaters (I will mention one thing: "ELR's.") So, who says they would change? In fact, with studios pushing e-projection, maybe it would be in their best interest not to help too much. I know I sound like Mr. Cranky, but I really feel theaters need help with hundreds of little things like this *now* and are not getting it.

-"There also was once an attempt to have a SMPTE Recommended Practice to write the film title and reel number <snip> Unfortunately, this is impractical today, because SDDS occupies that area of the print."

Could they simply do something like draw, say, 3 slashes (for reel 3) about 2 feet in on the print, in between the sprocket holes on the non-soundtrack side? There's nothing there. It could be done at both ends (the emulsion would tell you if it's the head of 3 or tails.)

John P: Is there a written guideline anywhere for editors or negitive cutters for creating a changeover, including how the audio (pull-ups) are done? Or, it it just one of those things one guy shows another, and is never really written down?

Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 05-24-2000 10:28 AM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John, I have several books on editing. They mention, when balancing the reels, if possible, no c/o's should occur: (1) during musical numbers or (2) in heavy action or complex dialogue sequences.

------------------
Better Projection Pays!


John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 05-24-2000 12:10 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tim:

Do the books give details, or it is a cursory kind of explaination? You know what I mean: I'm hoping for some exact description of what "happens" at the c/o, and how to deal with specific cases.

Thanks!

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-24-2000 12:51 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just thought of another way to identify the reel number throughout the entire length of the film.

As most of you know, Dolby now prints a Dolby "Double D" trademark at the center of the Dolby Digital data matrix between each perforation. It may be possible to program the Dolby sound camera to expose a tiny reel number at some repeat interval (e.g., once every 24 frames). That way, any print with Dolby Digital track could be viewed under a magnifier, and the reel number would be printed in every 96th perforation (24 frames X 4 perfs = 96). (You'll still have 95 perfs that have the Dolby trademark).

I'll check with Ioan Allen of Dolby to see if this is feasible. Perhaps one of the Dolby participants in Film-Tech Forum could let us know if this might work? Can I be listed as inventor in the Dolby patent?

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Dustin Mitchell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1865
From: Mondovi, WI, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 05-24-2000 01:21 PM      Profile for Dustin Mitchell   Email Dustin Mitchell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In the intern though, until we can get all these great ideas implemented (no sarcasm, those are some really good ides) we can use my system *blush*. Really, do we need to leave reference frames on the first and last reels? Do we need to leave reference frames on the head AND tail of every reel in between? No.

John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 05-24-2000 02:20 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm wondering if the Dolby logo is simply 'read' out of RAM or even ROM. Someone would have to write some software to change it, plus some interface so either the (negative) printer or the printer operator can 'input' the reel number.

Actually, I've never seen how the Dolby image gets printed. Is the camera controlled by a regular PC? (Easier to re-program to insert reel numbers) or is it a dedicated device, with it's own electronics (harder to re-program.) What is the source (I'm guessing there's only one digital source, which is simply copied to the analog track normally.)

Good idea, though. Every reel gets it's number, and it uses equipment that's already in place.

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-24-2000 02:21 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Great one John! I wonder if Dolby can rescue everyone? That would be too funny.

Otherwise, let's just ban the use of SDDS and go back to placing the writing on the edges again.

Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 05-24-2000 02:36 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John Pytlak:
Is there any reason the reel identity couldn't be written onto the edge of the IP or IN and exposed onto the magenta layer of the print? That wouldn't interfere with SDDS and more than the magenta-only information already there.

The only drawback to this that I can think of is that it would still just be something someone would check when there is a question and not be blatantly obvious like the cutoff ID frame. If there was to be a new laboratory standard then printing a check frame into the leader would be the way to go. The SMTPE leader already accomodates them as they could be placed at the CF location.



Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-24-2000 02:38 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Funny. I was just coming back to this thread to post the idea of printing the reel number (ala Kodak's edge numbering) within the SDDS track anyway!

Steve, so long as YOU have a guaranteed and easy method (not having to read an optical track) for positively identifying frames, I would think you would be happy.

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-24-2000 02:44 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve: You wouldn't want to use the printer's edgelight to print over the SDDS track area. You would have to be very precise to restrict the edgeprint to magenta-only to avoid interference when reading the SDDS track with red light. One reason the edgeprint ID never took off is that people felt uneasy writing or scribing the information on the edge of a valuable duplicate negative, and this would be the same situation today.

Just as it may be possible for Dolby to encode a reel number where they print their trademark "Double D" in the Dolby Digital data, perhaps SDDS could do likewise in their track bits. I'll check with Al Barton or Dan Taylor at Sony to see if it's feasible.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-24-2000 02:51 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
I'll give SDDS credit on this ONE thing, when running it will tell you which reel you are on and the footage just by opening the front door (2000 series model). Unfortunately, this provides NO help in assembling a print...but in an emergency identification situation, it could be a help.

That idea of printing the reel number in the SRD area "OPPOSITE" the actual SRD track (between the sprockets) is sounding better and better.



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