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Author Topic: Brightest Outdoor Screen I've Seen
Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 07-11-2000 11:55 AM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I use Schneider's Theatre Design Pro software (available free on their website). You can change any variable (screen width/height, projection throw, focal length) and watch everything else follow. A list of suggested Schneider lenses appears in the window, for a given combination of variables, if available. I watch the f/#'s of the displayed lenses, to find the upper limits. This gives a good idea of what can and can't be done with what's available.

Since a previous query on this forum indicated that currently-available lamphouses are at least f/2.0, the lenses are the element that's most likely to become a bottleneck, if not selected wisely (given proper optical alignment and components, of course).

The f-number is a mathematical statement, relating to the angle of light that a given component will pass. Just like in an SLR camera.. the higher the f-number, the smaller the aperture; the slower the lens, i.e.- less light will pass. However, with slower lenses comes greater depth of field and vice-versa. With very fast projection lenses (on the order of f/1.6 or less), it can be difficult to keep a projected image in focus.

The best way to illustrate the importance of matching the various elements in an optical train, is to think about looking down the centers of several, identical donuts, stacked one on top of the other. Now place a donut with a smaller hole anywhere in stack, and you will only see the small opening. This is how a mismatch can limit the performance of the whole system.

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Better Projection Pays!


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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 07-11-2000 03:41 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tim, that is not exactly right. Doughnuts with large openings do not affect my ability to focus in on them. I can see them clearly, right down to the little sprinkles. It is true, though, that small openings are preferred since larger aperture openings = less doughnut.

I notice I am now a "Jedi Master." That means I have annoyed all of you with 500 posts. I apologize!

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Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 07-11-2000 07:05 PM      Profile for Dave Bird   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Bird   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I sell doughnuts (among other things)! Holy crap, I better slow down my postings, lest I become a "Jedi Master" before I've even projected any film! Is there any way to disable that Brad ? Thanks Tim, I shall look at the Schneider site. My lenses are B&L.

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Dave Bird

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 07-12-2000 08:47 AM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John... You are CORRECT, oh great one! I yield to the master. (I like Krispy Kremes the best!)

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Better Donuts Pay!


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Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 07-12-2000 08:24 PM      Profile for Dave Bird   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Bird   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tim, that software is cool! I wish I knew more about the lenses, I never know which to pick. Also, I wish there were a little program somewhere telling you (roughly) what size bulb on what size screen etc. for how many lumens. Gordon, since you were there for the refurb of the Lindsay DI, do you recall who built screen 2? It looks somewhat like a Selby, but I'm assuming it was built up here.

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Dave Bird

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 07-13-2000 07:33 AM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The lens given at the top of the list is the best recommended choice for those particular set of circumstances. They get progressively less desireable as you go down the list. But remember, the higher the f/#'s get, the more light you're going to be choking off.

I forget the screen width/recommended bulb size rules of thumb, but I wouldn't chance 2kW past 35-40 ft wide in a drive-in. And 3kW should only be good for drive-in screens up to about 48-50 ft. Any wider than that, and count on going with 4kW.

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Better Projection Pays!


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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 07-13-2000 09:06 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As JP said, there are many factors that affect screen brightness.

I will just add that a very rough rule-of-thumb was to take the height of the screen squared times 12 to find suggested wattage.

15 foot high screen

(15x15) x 12 = 2700 watts

In actual practice, I find this to give wattages that are a little low, especially with focal lengths below 80mm or so. Remember, though, it's not a formula for actually buying equipment by.

Tim, apparently, Better Donuts (do) Pay! Look at their stock: http://quote.yahoo.com/q?s=KREM&d=t

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 07-13-2000 02:53 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John:

Your "rule of thumb" pretty much agrees with mine of "5 watts per square foot of scope format screen area":

15 ft high x 36 ft wide = 540 square feet

540 square feet x 5 watts = 2700 watts

This "rule of thumb" is based on the Strong slide rule, and assumes a two blade 90-degree shutter, normal (f/2.0?) lens, matte screen with gain = 1.0, and normal efficiency. A properly curved gain screen requires less power, depending on the gain.

Glad our thumbs are the same size.

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 07-13-2000 04:49 PM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
JW: HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

JP: So, this Strong sliderule isn't just a lens computer? That's pretty good about the 5 watts... I'm going to have to remember that.

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Better Projection Pays!

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 07-14-2000 09:45 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK, here's a question: Do lens and equipment manufacturers give all the information required to actually be able to figure out screen brightness to within (say) 5%?

I checked a few manufacturer's web site, but did not see "projector efficiency" or "speed of lamphouse," or other numbers that would be required.

Could we create one "master" formula?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 07-14-2000 10:17 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There have been attempts to "standardize" measurement of light output. SMPTE Recommended Practice RP153 describes a "Method for Measuring 35- and 70-mm Shutter Efficiency", and there was some attempt to specify a measure of total lumen output. Unfortunately, few manufacturers publish "system" performance, since there are so many variables over which they have little control (e.g., the match between a particular lamphouse and lens).

The "rules of thumb" or tools like the Strong "Lens Selector and Picture Size Computer" slide rule are good starting points. I usually err on the side of specifying the next lamp size up, because it's easier to defocus the lamp and get better uniformity, than to struggle to get 16 footlamberts with an undersized lamp.

Working with an equipment dealer, the design specifications should state that the system will consistently deliver 16 footlamberts. They can then work with you to achieve it on reasonable sized screens. (For a 30 x 72 foot screen, don't expect to meet SMPTE standard with 35mm prints).

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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John T. Mellor
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: Htafield, Pennsylvania, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 08-12-2000 01:17 PM      Profile for John T. Mellor   Email John T. Mellor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At the Bucks Drive in that I had to close last year [I didn't own the land just the theatre] it was a single twined down the middle with remote booths in each field 235 ft to the screen 40 x 80 screens simplex XL,s Knisley series 1 with Osram 4k bulbs at 150 amps we were able to get 15 at the middle and 14.2 at the sides lenses were 1.9 fs The big key was to keep everything clean and in alignment also we ran without port glass except when it raine

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