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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Screen size vs. wattage (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: Screen size vs. wattage
Ben Wales
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 602
From: Southampton. England
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 08-21-2000 04:28 PM      Profile for Ben Wales   Email Ben Wales   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
They are using a 10kw Xenon at a 2,500 seater open air cinema at Expo2000 in Hanover Germany.

Uncertain what projector they are using (Kinoton?), they are only screening 35mm films on a 32m wide screen.

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Tim Sherman
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 125
From: North Ridgeville, OH, USA
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 08-21-2000 09:39 PM      Profile for Tim Sherman   Author's Homepage   Email Tim Sherman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
so that means that here at my drive-in i would have to run a 30,000 watt bulb?????? oh my. honestly with that much light you wouldn't see anything on the screen but pure white. my screen size here is 50'x 118' anyone know where one would aquire a 30k watt bulb from. what would the life on a bulb like that be? one night showing? currently on that screen i run a 5,000 watt and it isn't a half bad picture. So honestly what kind of formula is there for drive-in's any ideas anyone


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-22-2000 06:35 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tim:

In practice, a 7000 watt lamp is about as big as can be used for 35mm projection. Larger lamps have larger electrodes, so the plasma of the arc is difficult to efficiently focus on the "postage stamp" sized 35mm frame. And even if you could, the concentration of energy would likely burn the film. For really huge screens, 70mm is needed, since you can then spread out the energy over a much larger area of film.

As far as drive-ins, SMPTE Recommended Practice RP 12 says that you should try to get 16 footlamberts, but you are allowed to be as low as 4.5 footlamberts. So about 1.5 watts per square foot of scope screen area would be the minimum "rule of thumb" for a drive-in. At 5000 watts, I suspect your "half bad picture" is only half of the SMPTE 4.5 footlambert minimum. It may be heresy, but you would actually improve quality if you didn't try to fill the screen, and used a smaller image, say about 40 x 96 feet, which would at least have a chance of reaching 4.5 footlamberts.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 08-22-2000 07:47 AM      Profile for Dave Bird   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Bird   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We talked about this a few weeks back. All the advice I've gotten says build a smaller screen. I believe Gordon mentioned that when he installed it, the drive-in in Lindsay Ontario was getting 14.5 ftL on both screens there (and it's a great picture, especially for outdoor). Screen 1 was 40ft.
wide with 2K Xenon, Screen 2 was 60ft. wide with 3K, both for 200 +/- cars. Is the indoor goal also around 16 ftL? Screen 1 is a Magnarc conversion, and I think 2 was a Xetron. Picture was fabulous the night I was there, but the owner had ordered new bulbs just the same.

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Dave Bird

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-22-2000 08:13 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Screen 2 is a xenex2 lamphouse

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-22-2000 11:05 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dave:

Standard SMPTE 196M specifies a screen luminance aim of 16 footlamberts for indoor theatres, with an allowed range of 12 to 22 footlamberts. SMPTE RP 12 sets the same aim for drive-ins, but allows as low as 4.5 footlamberts. It is certainly possible to achieve 16 footlamberts on a 25 x 60 foot screen, but any bigger with 35mm prints risks heat damage to the film and other problems, so the really large screens are probably well below 16 footlamberts.

I agree that getting 14+ footlamberts on a moderate-sized outdoor screen should look "fabulous". But actually MEASURING the light with a screen luminance meter is the only way to be sure what the light level actually is. Some pictures can look okay at 10 footlamberts, but they will look much better at 16 footlamberts.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com


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Rory Burke
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 181
From: Burbank, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 08-22-2000 03:30 PM      Profile for Rory Burke   Email Rory Burke   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John P: I meant I was going to try and compare all of the "rule of thumb" equations and with my light meter was going to go around all of my screens and compare to see with "rule of thumb" equation was the closest. All of them are THX certified with 16ft/L with the exception of a lamp house here and there that needs a bulb changed out.
Is it possible that one of them coud yeild the best results?

Rory

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 08-22-2000 04:14 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Rory: If you would like to make the "rule of thumb" formula more accurate, it might be interesting to make a small survey of the theaters you compare. Recording stuff like the type of screen, (gain or "matte") make and focal length of lenses, throw, screen size, lamphouse type, etc. If you copy that data here, and several other people do the same, then all of us could evaluate it and find a good formula.

I know you may not have time to do all of this. But the reason I suggest it is because there are so many different factors that effect the light. For example, if you measure two different screens, but one has a gain screen and the other doesn't, it will throw off the accuracy of the formula.

THX doesn't get real involved in the "picture" part of theaters. I mean they do make sure the image is not serverly cropped, and it is decently lit, but just because the theaters are THX approved does not mean you are compairing "apples to apples."

Generally speaking, I found that the height x height x 12 formula works to 60mm. Then I would add 5% for each 5mm step less. Even then, we would buy the next bigger lamp, even if the wattage value fell on a standard lamp size.

For top/bottom masking situations, we found that the light could be improved by adjusting the tilt of the projector to the correct angle for scope first. Then, move the framing knob and file a plate for flat. The light is a little better than doing it the other way around. I thought I was so clever when I though of this, but then found a SMPTE article that, although didn't say this directly, implyed it strongly.

I think that without doing a real careful survey, the existing "rule of thumb" is pretty good. But, I would think it kinda fun to work out a better one.


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Pat Moore
Master Film Handler

Posts: 363

Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 08-22-2000 07:53 PM      Profile for Pat Moore   Email Pat Moore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A formula as discussed above would be kind of interesting, but there are a lot of variables to get into it.

Start with screen gain, then factor in its curve, and then audience distribution, and masking type, and lenses and film formats and the amount of cropping of each format, and xenon system efficiencies, a bulb degradation factor, and then make an allowance for focus drift...

Might be better to take a basic formula, look at one or two other major variables and then add a little "Kentucky Windage" based on experience.


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