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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Color temp drift on aging Xenon bulbs? (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: Color temp drift on aging Xenon bulbs?
John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-21-2001 09:13 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul Mayer asked: "And regarding John's point about 5500K daylight, one of these days I'm going to read up on how the SMPTE settled on having two different standards for the color of white in the picture business--i.e. film being at 5400K and video being at 6500K. It really bugs me everytime I walk out of a screening room and into a telecine suite! One of these days..."

AFAIK, it had to do with optimizing the efficiency of a video display --- you could get more light at the higher color temperature. Standard SMPTE 196M traces the film projection color temperature specification back to the days of high intensity carbon arc, which was very close to natural daylight. Xenon arc is very similar. There is some variation, mostly due to differences in dichroic coatings and optics, rather than the lamps themselves.

A recent technical paper on the subject was published in the SMPTE Journal: Berggren, Glenn, The Color of Light on the Screen -- New Measurements at Studios and Laboratories, 106:156, Mar. 1997.

There is ongoing discussion within the SMPTE DC28.8 Digital Projection Study Group regarding color temperature, with a push to specify a higher color temperature than 5400K for Digital Cinema.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-21-2001 01:56 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Which model Vista Pro do you have?

I recall that the Vista Pro used a CERMAX Xenon lamp module. What size lamp (watts) did yours take? What did the replacement module cost?

Surprised to hear the new xenon lamp blew the "ballast". (The term "ballast" implies a metal halide lamp). Isn't the power supply filtered DC with high voltage ignition, similar to a regular xenon lamphouse? Wasn't there a fuse or current limiter to protect the power supply from the "shock" of changing lamps?

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-21-2001 02:30 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
..


Larry Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 66
From: New York
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 02-21-2001 03:18 PM      Profile for Larry Davis     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi John,
It's an Electrohome Vista Pro. Just the plain old Vista Pro, not the Plus or 2000 model. It uses a 500 Watt CERMAX Xenon module. I paid $950. I don't know the answer to your other questions, but I am contacting Christie again. I have found a local service center, but I am hoping to find a few more, as I don't want to be gouged on the repair cost. Thanks for your thoughts.

Larry Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 66
From: New York
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 02-24-2001 12:51 PM      Profile for Larry Davis     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I received an email from a digital projection guru. He explained to me that my color analyzer was probably at fault, since it was designed to be used with phosphor CRT monitors. It's not the kind of high-tech analyzer Joe Kane would use. It was originally designed for direct view CRT's.


Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-24-2001 05:37 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,

I would think that the studio types would NOT want the 5400K increased based on my dealings with them in premier situations. In fact, they seem to prefer it on the lower side to keep flesh tones looking good. As the color temp increases to 6000K, people start to look dead.

Generally, when I have a screening room or a theatre that does more than it's share of studio screenings and where dailies and such might be run, the spec I use on the reflectors is 5400K +0/-200K but matched to each other (if 2-projector). It is within SMPTE spec and keeps the studio types happy.

I am working on a lab project now where the projector must put out either 5400K or 3200K!!! Oh what a pain! Since some of the 16mm film is destined for tungsten illumination, they want the 3200K reference as well.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-24-2001 06:10 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Use a wratten 85 filter they are available in professional optic glass from Tiffen and the likes

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-24-2001 07:31 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gord:

Actually, this will be Kinoton's problem. There will actually be two filters, one for 5400K and one for 3200K. As I understand it, they are going to have the light coming out of the lamphouse higher than 5400K and filter it down to 5400K or 3200K as necessary. Since it is for a lab, they are fussy!

This puppy will do 16, Super-16 and 35mm, forward or reverse from 1 -30 fps projection, and up to 100fps shuttle (in either direction), all remoted with projection speed on a read out....Talk about your bells and whistles!

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-24-2001 08:54 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've analyzed Glenn Berggren's data, which seems to show an average color temperature slightly higher than the current 5400K specification, but nowhere near the 6500K favored by the video folks. The labs and studio projectors Glenn surveyed also seem to be off the black body locus, and on the daylight locus.

My own preference would be to go with a D5500 specification, or the same color temperature as average "daylight". It would reflect the latest data such as Glenn's. But it would also be the same as the light most of us look at the outside world with--- DAYLIGHT.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-26-2001 06:12 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Larry: Typical 3-color color temperature meters may be "fooled" by the discontinuous spectral output of CRTs and dichroic prism devices such as a DLP projector. The best way to measure color temperature is to measure the full spectrum with a spectroradiometer, and calculate it based on the CIE color response functions.

As you know, the light output of a high intensity carbon arc or xenon arc film projector is very similar to natural daylight, whereas the "white" on a video projector is really a combination of red, green and blue light, with "gaps" in-between.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Larry Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 66
From: New York
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 02-26-2001 01:07 PM      Profile for Larry Davis     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the explanation, John. You're one of the people that make this forum such a great resource.

Larry Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 66
From: New York
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 04-09-2001 01:46 AM      Profile for Larry Davis     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I obtained the service manual and service code for this projector. It turns out the default bias adjustments for the 6500K setting had been modified by someone else. That should explain the skewed color temp readings. I have set them back to the defaults.

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