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Author Topic: Caring About Composition
Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-13-2001 09:30 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't think masking an outdoor screen would be too awfully difficult. Just EXPENSIVE! Y'Know those roll-up steel security shutters they use to block off whole hallways in places like shopping malls? I know this would take a lot of engineering but I think that's a solvable problem. The real problem is $$$!


Tom Sauter
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 163
From: Buffalo, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 03-14-2001 09:49 AM      Profile for Tom Sauter   Author's Homepage   Email Tom Sauter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Since we're on the subject of proper screen masking, does anyone have any suggestions to get a nice looking scope image on this screen?

Those idiots on the stage must be the architects. We actually bring architecture students through this theatre as an example of how NOT to design a cinema.

I've installed manually adjustable side masking, which does a nice job for 1.85, 1.66, and 1.37. But since the screen's opening is drywalled on all four sides, I fear I may have to "letterbox" scope images to get rid of fuzzy aperture lines.

(Side note: This theatre was a nightmare when I first walked into it. All of the installation work that Gordon and others had done was completely wiped out by my predecessor. I've had to re-install every single piece of equipment. The scope masking is one of last deficiencies remaining).

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-14-2001 10:01 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom Sauter:

That room cries for a wider screen for "scope". Looks like the present screen is about 8 feet high, so you would want a screen at least 19 feet wide.

It would also be a good idea to use black paint or carpeting on that shiny light wood stage, to avoid "contrast killing" reflection of light back to the screen.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Bob Maar
(Maar stands for Maartini)


Posts: 28608
From: New York City & Newport, RI
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 03-14-2001 10:56 AM      Profile for Bob Maar   Author's Homepage   Email Bob Maar   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To: John Walsh, I appreciate your kind words, but all the "thanks" should go to you for bringing the facts to my attention. The people of Stamford, Ct., are the real winners for they get a proper presentation and the theatre owner gets the receipts, etc. It pays in more ways imaginable to do things correctly. Plus we can sleep at night.

To: Tom, As John suggested, please put a dark (black) carpet over the entire stage including the front facade.

It looks like you have room to put in a wider screen, possibly with movable side maskings and use a common height for your ratio's.

William T. Parr
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 823
From: Cedar Park, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-14-2001 11:20 AM      Profile for William T. Parr   Email William T. Parr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Could build another screen frame 2 feet in front of the present screen so you could widen it out to 2.35 ft across foo every foot of hieght you have. This is what the Upstairs Auditorium of the Howard Twin looks like except the screen is correct for scope at 9'6" tall by 22' masked at 9' X 21' 2" fixed masking. We also had a stage like that one in front of it. At one point someone painted the stage Bright Red. We are looking at moving the screen up 3 ft to accomadate a stereo system. As it sits now the Speaker behind the screen sits in a partial Pod that protudes into the auditorium below.

Tom Sauter
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 163
From: Buffalo, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 03-15-2001 08:07 AM      Profile for Tom Sauter   Author's Homepage   Email Tom Sauter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks, guys! Those are excellent suggestions. Carpeting that stage has been on the radar for some time now... I'm trying to convince a few folks that the finished oak is NOT a "feature" of the room. The screen is 10.5' x 19.5', and believe it or not they accidentally ordered two when they built the place! Maybe I can splice them together .

Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 03-18-2001 04:55 PM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John: fixed screen format? "one size fits all"????
I CAN'T BELIEVE!
I will never go in a theater where scope film are presented in the same dimension of a flat movie... How many theaters are there in the USA that are using this orrible tecnique????????? I hope few ones...
I can understand the "multiplex" tecnique to enlarge the screen vertically to have flat screen as widht as scope. I agree with evans. I saw my first type of that masking in an Italian Multiplex. At the moment I thought it was a good idea since the theater is not big. But in their biggest auditorium they have a classic masking. I also agree with John: in smaller auditorium flat films are bigger than scope...

However I cannot understand how a theater can thinks "one size fits all". If I'll go in a theater like that I'll go away immediately screaming and running!!! Unbelievable!

In Italy masking is not used often. In my theater, for example, when I project in 1:85 part of the screen is not used, white. In Florence there are more than 45 screens and one only has motorized masking.

bye
Antonio

Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-18-2001 08:12 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have a few "Onezie" screens in my theatres. They really look terrible to me. My problem is that as much as I want to change them, I have 100 other screens to keep running.

Sometimes when I go to these places all I can do is just shake my head.

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-19-2001 08:11 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Antonio: "One size fits all" shouldn't happen, but it does. IMHO, if a theatre cannot afford movable side masking, then at least show the correct aspect ratios with "fuzzy" edges. The only justifiable reason not to have a screen capable of the full 2.39:1 scope aspect ratio is that it is an old landmark theatre that would require tearing out the prescenium to install a wider screen.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Evans A Criswell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1579
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 03-20-2001 09:40 AM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with John that showing a movie at the correct aspect ratio with "fuzzy edges" on an incorrectly-sized screen is better than cropping the image to fit the screen if the amount of crop would be significant (like 2.39:1 down to 2.00:1 or 1.85:1, or 1.85:1 down to 2.00:1 or less). Actually, if the Regal theatres in my area began showing scope movies on their 1.85:1-only screens by "letterboxing them", I'd give those theatres a higher rating than I currently do. They currently get a hefty 7.5 point facility deduction because of the severe cropping (23 percent) of scope films in two thirds of the auditoriums.

Based on my previous experiences, nobody seems to complain if a flat movie is shown on a scope screen with several feet of black on both sides (although I will deduct 4 points for it), but every time a "letterboxed" scope trailer is printed to be shown in the flat format with black at the top and bottom, people start chattering when they see it and think something is wrong. I don't believe "letterboxing" scope onto a 1.85:1-only screen would go over well with the average customers, although it would be better than cropping to 1.85:1.

The only feasible cure for Cobb Syndrome (as I affectionately refer to it) in those long narrow auditoriums that are only 28 feet or less wide is to put adjustable top masking in place. I know top masking is disliked, but it's better than a fixed size of 1.85:1 for everything.

Evans A Criswell
http://home.hiwaay.net/~criswell/theatre/



John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-20-2001 10:30 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is it true that one factor that limited the screen size in certain shopping center/mall theatres was the "standard" support column spacing? In other words, they didn't design the building to be a theatre, they designed the theatres to fit inside a multi-purpose building, leading to narrow screens, and floors with inadequate slope (poor sight lines).

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Evans A Criswell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1579
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 03-20-2001 11:07 PM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John, that's exactly what happens a lot of the times when a theatre moves into a preexisting facility. I'm sure the column support system in a preexisting building would create severe limitations on how well a theatre could be built, as would ceiling height and the nature of the floor.

Let me use as an example my favorite example, the Cobb Cinema 8 in Huntsville that closed last May. Read all of these details of the auditoriums and booth configuration and be amazed!

It was in a shopping center built for a grocery store. There was an A&P grocery store in the location, which Cobb Theatres chose to put an 8-screen multiplex. It was painfully obvious that the building was never intended to be a theatre. Some auditoriums were 24 feet wide with the big ones being 28 feet wide. All of the screens except one were fixed-sized with no adjustable masking and the screens were 20 feet by 10 feet to give that 2.00:1 aspect ratio for everything that we've come to love so much. One screen was 24 feet wide by 10 feet wide and had adjustable side masking, but the manager told me at the time that it stayed "out" all the time, and I guess that only scope movies were shown in that auditorium.

Every auditorium had a nice bright red exit sign right at one of the edges of the screen washing out a large portion of each screen in red light.

The port holes were not in the centers of the rears of the auditoriums, but in a rear corner of each, for maximum keystoning. One glance at the booth made it obvious why they did that. Projectors for pairs of auditoriums could be placed close to each other so that a single deck of 5 platters could feed both. That way, only 4 decks of platters were needed for the 8 projectors.

One of my favorite features of the theatre was the way the booth had to be built into the place. The walkway that went from the lobby straight back to the rear of the theatre, with 4 auditoriums on each side, did not have enough clearance between the hall ceiling and the building's ceiling to put the booth directly above the walkway. Instead, it was placed on the left side of the walkway and you went up a set of very unfinished looking steps to get to it, and the booth floor was about 4 feet higher than the walkway floor. This configuration caused the front and back auditoriums on the left side to be "L-shaped" since the booth ended at the right back corner of the front auditorium and the left rear corner of the rear auditorium. It felt very odd sitting in the rear section of those auditoriums due to the assymmetry. The 20 foot by 10 foot screens were not even centered on the front wall in those auditoriums. They were about a foot off center. There was room for 24 foot by 10 foot screens with side masking in every auditorium, but those 20 by 10s were put in every auditorium but one.

Anyway, now for the strange booth quirk: since the booth was to the left and up four feet from the walkway, running along it for most of the length of the walkway, you may wonder how the image was projected into the auditoriums on the right side of the complex. They projected the beam of light through the space over the walkway into the right auditoriums. The right auditoriums therefore probably had a 20 foot longer throw than did the left auditoriums.

Another feature of this theatre was a single aisle up the center of every auditorium, with seats going from both sides of it to the walls. There was not much slope and the seats actually started sloping upward toward the screen in the front portions of each auditoriums.

This place was a perfect example, in nearly every way, of how NOT to build a theatre. Can anyone think of ways to have so many undesirable features? Building in an old grocery store led to some of the shortcomings, but there was no excuse for others. This was a first-run theatre complex from 1982 until 1996, and then was a second-run theatre until 2000. I weep thinking of all the presentations that suffered in that place. I was actually ecstatic to see it close.

MORAL of the story: If you're going to build a theatre, do it right! The world does not need grocery store theatres!

Although Cobb's later theatres were actually designed and built as theatres from the start, the 28-foot wide auditorium with a fixed-size 1.85:1-only wall-to-wall screen was the norm in 20 of the 28 auditoriums that Cobb built here. Regal added 2 auditoriums to the Hollywood 16, making the ratio 20 out of 30 (two thirds). I wonder if we will be forever afflicted with Cobb Syndrome here. Roger Frazee, are you still around?

Evans A Criswell
http://home.hiwaay.net/~criswell/theatre/


John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-21-2001 10:32 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Evans: Ouch!

I guess the only thing worse than a poorly designed theatre is ruining a really good theatre by crudely twinning it, as was too often done in the 70's and 80's.

One good thing about modern stadium designs is that the building is intended as a theatre right from the start. Although sometimes the smaller auditoriums in a stadium complex don't get the attention they deserve, and end up sparsely designed and unsatisfying.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Evans A Criswell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1579
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 03-21-2001 01:03 PM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,

About crudely twinning, look at this information given by a theatre manager in a certain small town. Since this was a private email, I have blocked out the theatre name and dates to protect the identity of the sender, since I don't want to cause any problems for him.

Here is some relevant information concerning the twinning of the theatre that was in the email message:

>I still use the original <brand deleted>
>Projectors. <irrelevant stuff deleted> I
>updated when I twinned. I use platters,
>and put in surround sound. <more deleted>
>The single screen ... was 20x40. The
>screens now are 14x28.

From this paragraph, it is clear that in the twinning, the theatre was switched from changeovers to platters. I'll bet that the two projectors being reused were aimed at the two new screens through the same portholes. I'll have to check this out and verify it if I have a chance to visit that theatre. Note the screen dimensions: 2.00:1 . Adjustable masking was not mentioned, but I'll not assume that unless I make a visit to the theatre.

Sound like a typical twinning job?

Evans



David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 03-28-2002 08:41 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bumping this up because the subject of John Pytlak's article is important!

The worst twinning I ever saw was the Edwards Huntington Cinema in Huntington Beach, CA. As a single-screen, this was a wonderful theater with the seats arranged in an arc so they faced the center of the original screen. When it was twinned, they didn't bother to re-aim the seats, so they faced the end of the newly-constructed center wall. You had to turn your head to the side to view the center of the new screens. Also, the booths seemed to be constructed on plywood with little support (or something), because they acted as a sounding board and vibration from the projectors was clearly audible in the auditoriums.

I love it when the image is centered in the masking and there are four clean, crisp black borders. Hate those fuzzy edges where the image doesn't reach the masking.



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