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Author Topic: Shades of "Foundation" the future of cinema
Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-19-2001 01:32 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I haven't read the article that Jerry is referring to (although I plan to do so when I have a chance), but I do seem to think that Bob is correct. If this thing that is being proposed actually happens, then it sounds like it would be a new and interesting form of entertainment and art, but I also don't think that it would necessarily displace the concept of what we now know as "films" or "movies" or "cinema" (depending on how pretentious the writer is feeling at the time), although it may change it slightly.

The development of the motion picture didn't kill stage plays or books; the development of photography didn't kill the art of painting (though it did radically change it); the development of television didn't kill radio; ad infinitum.

I guess that my point here is that there will always be something equivalent to "movies" that we see now--i.e. a fixed, projected, 2-D image designed to be viewed on a screen in a darkened room with an audience, usually but not always intended to provide some sort of narrative story through moving pictures and sound. Whether or not actual, photochemical film is used to achieve this goal in the future, the type of art form and the experience of viewing it are so heavily entrenched in our culture that I doubt that it will go away in any of our lifetimes, even if other, newer forms of entertainment and art develop to compete with it.

John Schulien
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 206
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 03-19-2001 02:29 PM      Profile for John Schulien   Email John Schulien   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's common to think of the human visual system in "digital camera" terms -- where one can say that the eye has a certain resolution, but the visual system is much more complicated then that. Actually, it's much more efficient then that.

The retina contains two different types of photosensors -- rods and cones. Rods are very low resolution -- they mostly detect motion, and cannot detect color. Cones detect color. Interestingly, the rods and cones are not evenly distributed on the retina. The vast majority of the cones are concentrated in a little tiny spot near the middle of the retina, and they are responsible for the phenomenon of high resolution color vision. When you look straight at something, that's the part of your retina that you are using -- the high resolution patch right in the middle.

Outside of that tiny little center patch, your retina has much lower resolution, but better peripheral vision and motion detection.

Try this -- focus your eyes on the first letter of a paragraph of text, and, keeping your eye focused straight on that first letter , try and read the paragraph. You'll find that, even though the entire paragraph is within your field of vision, your brain cannot resolve detail outside of an extremely narrow range -- about 15 degrees.

Here is an excellent page describing the details of this phenomenon:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/retina.html#c2

How could this phenemonon be exploited in creating a display technology that is both beyond photo-realistic (reality-realistic?), and also computationally feasable?

One possible approach to designing an "immersive" simulation that is indistinguishable from reality would be to design a system that tracks the eyeball, so it "knows where you are looking", and continually presents an extremely high resolution image only where needed -- in the fovea centralis, while presenting a lower-resolution image in the peripheral vision. So instead of having to render some 200 degrees of ultra-high resolution graphics, the system would only need to render a 15 degree view in ultra-high resolution, and could render the rest on a lower resolution.

Of course, this is all speculative, but I think that it's worth keeping in mind that visual perception is non-linear, and the non-linearity of the human eye is an underexploited factor in display technology.

The intrinsic structure of film provides a natural "brute force" solution to the problem of image representation by providing very high resolution across the entire image -- an effective resolution of, as Greg said, some 13 megapixels,

But the sharp "sweet spot" in the eye only contains some 30,000 cones, which corresponds to a resolution of only 173 x 173. This is VERY low resolution.

So here's a proposed immersive VR system --

A low to medium resolution image, filling the complete 200 degree visual field, with an extremely high resolution "spot" superimposed on the low resolution image, where the location of the high resolution spot is determined by tracking the motion of the eyeball.

You might be able to get away with numbers like, 256x256 for the high resolution spot, and 1024x1024 for the low resolution field.

More food for thought.

Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-19-2001 02:38 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John -- very good point. I believe that I read about something like that a while ago. If I remember the article correctly, I think that your idea was the basis for some new type of air force figher simulator device. The idea was that the pilot would sit in an actual mockup of the fighter and an image would be projected (from computer source, via electronic projectors of some type) onto a dome screen above the aircraft canopy. There was some way of sensing the eyeball position, and a high-resolution image was projected in that region, while the rest of the image was comparatively low-res. I'll see if I can find the details. It might have just been a concept that was never implemented.

(BTW, I recommend that anyone who has the chance to "fly" in a simulator take advantage of the opportunity. Through an odd set of circumstances, I managed to spend about fifteen minutes in an airline DC-9 simulator, and (surprisingly) managed to land the thing, albeit with a commercial pilot telling me what to do. The thing looks like a box on stilts, but the inside looks just like a DC-9 cockpit. There are CRT monitors to show the view out the cockpit windows. I've obviously never flown a real DC-9 [or anything else, for that matter], but the experience was amazingly realistic...and this was with late-'80s-vintage technology. I'm sure that the newer simulators are even better and more realistic.)

Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-19-2001 04:26 PM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John
Interesting idea, the only problem of course is that if there are more than a single viewer, then things get complicated, and the more viewers the more sweetspots etc. Pretty soon your back to a large sweet spot to cover all of the potential sweet spots. If the "collective dream" approach to story presentation is to remain part of our society perhaps (as long as we're stretching our imaginations out) it would be more efficient to tap into the optic nerve? We could bypass all that troublesome hardware altogether. I'm serious. A direct link to the mind, like in "Brainstorm" (I think that was it, you know Natalie Woods last movie) Do the same with hearing. Actually I'm a little surprised at Star Treks short sightedness. Why have that Hollowdeck and all that clunky physical stuff when all you have to do is plug in the brain. Why go to all the trouble with machinery to "trick" the brain when all you have to do is stimulate it? Digital Cinema look out, here comes artificial reality. I firmly believe that anything man can imagine he can do. Anything. It's just a matter of time.

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-21-2001 08:50 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just read the article in Sci-Am. It was pretty good, actually.

Before, I was thinking that teleimersion was intended for use in presenting movies,etc. Actually its main use is for teleconferencing, although the article didn't rule out the possibility that it could be used for other things like medical research and ultimately, movies, I suppose.

Still, the article mainly looks at what the future of the technology might hold. Right now, they are using 6 or 7 video cameras, large video displays and either a pair of polarized glasses or a head mounted display. He also mentioned the use of a "computer glove".

The article talks about handling a three-way conference. It says, "Roughly speaking, a cluster of eight two gigahertz Pentium processors with shared memory should be able to process a trio [using 7 cameras] in approximately real time." It is estimated that, "Conveying a single person at a desk, without the surrounding room, at a slow rate of about two frames per second has proved to require about 20 megabits per second but with up to 80-megabit-per-second peaks."

Yes, there's a long way to go but the article gives a good look at the state of the art and the hopes of things to come.


Joe Schmidt
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 172
From: Billings, Montana, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 04-12-2001 04:32 AM      Profile for Joe Schmidt   Email Joe Schmidt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jerry, I just caught this thread and enjoyed it very much. You keep it up.

May I add this -- there's a tolerably good possibility that many of us will live to be several hundred years old. Certain of us already are, the first century is the hardest; but that's another story. Thus we will see what you have described come to pass.

This will be just one of the benefits of genetic research and the mapping of the human genome. The biological clock will first be stopped, and then gradually reversed. Cloning technologies will eventually produce such mundane things as a new replacement heart and other knick-knacks.

However death can still occur as a result of an accident if we aren't careful: such as going off the road into a ditch on the way to an Elvis sighting somewhere in the middle of the next century.

Therefore: Drive Carefully!

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Mitchell Dvoskin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1869
From: West Milford, NJ, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 04-12-2001 08:43 AM      Profile for Mitchell Dvoskin   Email Mitchell Dvoskin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have recently seen a number of 1950's 3D film projected in polarized duel 35mm projector format, and I have to say, that the effect is outstanding when projected properly. The only big enhancement that the Imax shutter glasses have over the older polarized units is that you can tilt your head without loosing the 3D effect. The problem with all these systems is the glasses. I'm not sure what benefit the "head tracking" technology offers over the Imax gogles, but unless you can eliminate the glasses, 3D will never be commercially successful.

Remember that we do not actually "see" anything. We "see" the light that is reflected off of the objects around us, and this light is slightly different between eyes, do to the spacing of our eyes. Since the principle of 3D photography involved controlling the light that hits the eyes to simulate how we see, no real 3D process will work unless you can control the light that arrives at each eye individually. At present time, this can not be done from the screen, it needs to be at the eye.

The 3D projection in Disney's Haunted House is a great gimick, but it is a trickery that is not transportable to general purpose presentations.

/Mitchell

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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 04-12-2001 09:02 AM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Head tracking allows the 3D to be more complete. With traditional 3D, if there is a shot of one person standing directly behind another, the person viewing can move left or right and still not see the hidden person. With tracking and the system described, the viewer can look behind the front person, just like in real life.


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Mitchell Dvoskin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1869
From: West Milford, NJ, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 04-12-2001 03:39 PM      Profile for Mitchell Dvoskin   Email Mitchell Dvoskin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow, that's impressive...

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Jonathan Haglund
Film Handler

Posts: 81
From: Irvine, CA, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 04-13-2001 03:51 AM      Profile for Jonathan Haglund   Author's Homepage   Email Jonathan Haglund   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Star Trek holodecks. According to that timeline, we wont have this technology for another 400 years. I think it may be sooner, but not much. The technology may exist to do many things as far fetched as this, but in the end, its the stupid economy that decides what gets developed faster and actually used. And most anyone who has worked the floor will agree, the masses don't make the greatest decisions about much of anything.

With Field Programmable Gate Arrays, or FPGA's (computers that can reporgram themeselves and literally evolve) are already in use at NASA and being improved upon constantly. Read more, its educational: http://www.newsobserver.com/monday/business/Story/419010p-414835c.html
These kind of computers can solve the tasks that we would normally have to throw server farms at.
Like I said to begin with, kinda, this is just another example of Star Trek becoming reality. Did anyone ever doubt it?

------------------
Jonathan Haglund
Edwards Theatre Circuit, Inc
Park Place 10


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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 04-13-2001 05:54 AM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Reprogramming itself might not be the best analogy. Think of a mass of interconnected water pipes with valves. A program dictates which valves get opened when, and which valves get closed. This system in effect allows different pipe connections to be made, thus reducing the number of pipes and valves involved in getting a task done.

Computers are used to design and optimize computers. Some circuits in a processor may be entirely computer designed and generated. Technology is fascinating.

I wonder if photon torpedos are just used xenon bulbs?

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 04-13-2001 11:49 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gate arrays are (sort of) programmable hardware. If you know how an EPROM works, you could think of that as a _very_ simple gate array.

For example, using a CAD type schematic drawing program, you could draw a circuit of logic devices like AND, OR gates, flip-flops, shift registers, etc. to perform some function (no analog stuff like caps or resistors.) Then, copy that circuit into the gate array.

The gate array itself is an IC with a bunch of pins on it (you buy the size you need to fit your curcuit in.) It's not uncommon for a gate array to have over 500 pins on it.

You load a gate array somewhat like "flashing" an EPROM. It can be "erased" and reprogrammed if you want to change the logic. It operates much faster than an EPROM, so it can used where processing a signal through a microprocessor isn't fast enough or you want to save space by combining everything in one big chip.

That article make it seem like FPGA are new and leading edge technology. They are neat stuff, but have been around for about 10 years. Before that, there were simplified chips called PAL's (programmable array logic) and other similar chips (FPLS's; field programmable logic sequencers) that did much the same thing, but were smaller and could only be burned once.


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Joe Schmidt
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 172
From: Billings, Montana, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 04-14-2001 01:11 AM      Profile for Joe Schmidt   Email Joe Schmidt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ah, yes, The Foundation Trilogy!! This really jogs the old memory banks. It was one of my favorites of all of Asimov's writings back when the crust of the earth was still cooling.

One of the three novels dealt with a planet which had only about 400 people, each with 10's thousands of robots who did all the work. The "holodeck" process here was a wall of great complexity requiring a platoon of robots on each end twirling dials and adjusting to keep it working. Never did any of the people see each other in person, the distances were too great, but they visited constantly this way.

At the rate technology is moving today, I think none of us can say that "anything" is "impossible." 10-Gig computer processors are just around the corner.

Will projectionists be replaced by robots? Well, maybe it will be tried, but carmike cinemas et al will buy cheap robots which will break down quickly and I Can See It Now!!!! Carmike's El Cheapo robot broke down on the floor, short circuited, shooting sparks and all tangled up in several thousand feet of loose film.

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