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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Lamp damage
Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 03-24-2001 03:42 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stefan -

Many thanks for the explanation. Our projectors were installed second-hand and reconditioned, so as I say, I think the most likely explanation is that the ammeter installed in the lamphouse when new went bust at some stage and was replaced by someone who didn't know that there was any difference and just thought that an ammeter was an ammeter, full stop.

When we discovered the problem we looked in three electronics catalogues (big, major suppliers) and none supplied a 60mV meter. So we had to fit new shunts and meters to ensure that both were of the same rating.

Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-24-2001 04:52 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Randy

By looking at that bulb with 6000 hours, I would recommend a power supply filter check, as well as the power supply operating parameter check, be performed as you suggested. Since all three bumps are the same size, I doubt if there is a diode problem.

Three phase AC ripple got into that thing, and by observing how severe the bumps look, the problem developed over a long period of time.


John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-24-2001 07:45 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul:

Please tell us how three phase ripple would cause three mushroom growths, as seen in Randy's photo. Does the plasma ball move around in sync with the phases, perhaps by magnetic force? Interesting phenomenon.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-24-2001 08:10 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi John,

I honestly don't know. It is an interesting phenomenon. All I know is it does happen. The bumps are 120 degrees apart.

I have seen this happen with bulbs used with single phase phase power supplies, also, but they leave 2 bumps 180 degrees from each other.

The three phase problems seem to cure themselves if the filter capacitors are renewed, or if the power supply is tapped for a lower current setting.

The phenomenum you are addressing happens quite frequently in the XPS-20-03 ORC power supplies operating at maximum rated output. Apparently, the capacitors are not large enough in capacity to do adequate filtering within that parameter.


Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-24-2001 08:10 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is the first and only lamp I have ever seen that had been left in this long. (Just for reference it was a Christie 3K lamp burning in a Christie 3K console.) There have been no problems like this in the past and the lamp has been running fine ever since. I'm pretty sure this happened because of the extreme age of the lamp and because we burn them at pretty close to the maximum limits. The reason the lamp was left in so long is that the person who wrote the log book entry had CRUMMY handwriting. All the people who came after him misread the entry and thought it was OK. We found it on a PM visit.

Normally we change them out at about 1800 hours, more or less. I have let them go up to 2000 in a pinch. (When the new lamps are on backorder, etc.) When we found this one I took one look and said, "What in the blankety-blank is this? I took this picture for my "Hall of Shame"... examples of things that you shouldn't do. I was going to post it a while back but I hesitated because I didn't want to be accused of "putting people down". The only reason I posted it now is because it was topical.

Needless to say, "The names have been changed to protect the innocent..."


John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-25-2001 06:49 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Randy:
Your policy of changing out a 3K lamp at about 1800 hours is a good one. That 6500 hour lamp was a bomb waiting to explode! Not to mention the dim and flickering light it likely was producing.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-25-2001 03:21 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm usually not a termpermental person but when I saw this I just about hit the ceiling.
We put the new lamp in and fired it up. Perfect. Then the guy said to me, "I was WONDERING why this one was dim..." I just bit my tongue and said, "Now you know, don't you!"

I had another place that kept telling me that the lamp wouldn't strike-up until about the 10th "crack". I kept telling them to change the lamp. They kept saying, "No, that isn't it." 3 or 4 times they call me up over a 3-4 month period with the same complaint and I kept telling them to change it. They never did.
I was there on a PM visit and they told me the same story. My answer was, "Go get your mask and gloves." By the time he found them I had the lamphouse undone (to the point of needing the mask and gloves.) I made HIM change the lamp while I watched. 10 minutes later we strike it up... WOW! It worked! I wonder how come?

Turns out that lamp was almost 4,000 hours old!
Every time I say to myself, "Now, I've seen everyting!" I turn around and there's something else!
After about 2-3 months of this kind of junk NOTHING pisses me off anymore.


When I go to these places, first thing I do after finding this kind of junk is take them outside and throw the lamp into the dumpster really hard. Then I tell them, "This is what'll happen if you don't change lamps when you're supposed to!" (The dumpster adds a nice "reverb" effect that helps punctuate the point. )
Most people are surprised to find out just how dangerous these things really are!

Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-25-2001 03:37 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi, Randy

As a reminder, xenon lamps should be smashed before they are disposed of.

Never throw away an intact xenon bulb. Some airhead dumpster diver may pull it out of the trash and say, "This is neat", not knowing how dangerous they are. If that thing blows up in their faces, the theater could be held liable.


Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-25-2001 03:58 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I always tell people to put them back in the box and wrap them up in a trash bag, them toss them on the floor really hard. I usually say something like "It's illegal to throw hazardous material in the dumpster... unexploded lamps are considered Haz-Mat..." (I don't think lamps are really Haz-Mat but if you don't exagerate people won't get your message sometimes.) When they are busted inside the box, the "clamshell" contains most of the force. The cardboard and layers of garbage bag contains the rest. It makes hardly any sound compared to the "amplified" sound of the dumpster. It makes a really good demonstration so that people realize just what kind of power they are toying around with. Most people come away a little bit "scared". I find that I have to say things about 10 times louder and make things about 10 times more "graphic" or else people just don't hear the message.

PS: Who's going to make a video of a xenon lamp exploding?
I was thinking of taking a lamp way the hell out back in the woods, setting it up on a stump or something. Then hang an old T-shirt up about 2 feet away from it and step back about 50 yards to take pot-shots at it with a .22 rifle. I've done this once or twice before. It makes a spectacular "show". If I had a video cam I'd do it but alas, I'm too poor. What would be even cooler if we could get some super slo-mo shots of the pieces of glass hitting the T-shirt. Then you can show the video to people and say, "If the schrapnel can penetrate a piece of cloth, just think about how it would penetrate skin!"

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 03-25-2001 04:13 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
I believe Joe is working on a video of "what to do with those leftover xenon lamps". It shows him in his car driving on the highway and tossing naked lamps at drivers that cut him off. Lots of car wrecks, violence and death. Just the kind of movie that sells!

Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-25-2001 05:05 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I want to mount one of those babies in the front grille of my car and hook it up to the high beam switch! The car would probably stall the moment you hit the swtich due to the electrical drain.

Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 03-25-2001 05:15 PM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Few months ago I had an used lamp in my hands. My manager told me to buy mask and gloves immediately because he discovered that pressure in a xenon lamp is very high also when cold.
So I've opened the OSRAM paper, and read about disposal.
I've put the lamp in its bag, in its box, in a plastic cover and I left the lamp fall into the floor from 2 meter high.
From that time I'm very afraid when I have to rotate a lamp or simply go around to a lamp not closed in a lamphouse...

Bye
A

Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-25-2001 05:37 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is my understanding the pressure in the bulb at room temperature is about 125 pounds per square inch. When the bulb reaches operating temperature, the pressure is about 450 pounds per square inch.

It should always be handled with caution and common sense.

Never assume anything.

Most accidents happen out of carelessness, and not paying close attention to what you are doing.


Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 03-25-2001 06:24 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad, Randy-

Actually I was going to make a fictional movie where someone calls the theater with a "Xenon bulb threat" (as opposed to a bomb threat) and the whole theater is quickly evacuated. The manager does not meet the callers demands so they decide to blow up the xenon bulb which they have hidden in the theater. The entire complex explodes sky high in a sequence that makes the building explosion in Terminator 2 look like a firecracker.

It could happen!


Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-25-2001 07:43 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is my understanding that there is about 10 atmospheres of pressure inside a cold xenon lamp. The average air pressure at sea level is 14.7 psi. That means there is approximately 147 pounds of pressure in a cold bulb. When it gets hot, of course the pressure goes up.

If you use the Ideal Gas Law: PV=NRT


  • P= Pressure
  • V = Volume
  • N = Amount of gas (in moles)
  • R = Ideal Gas Constant
  • T = Temperature (Degrees Kelvin)

Now we can cancel out V, N and R because we are not changing them. (The amount of gas and the volume of the bulb are the same.) We are left with P and T. We can just make them into a ratio.

P at room temperature is 147 pounds and we know that room temperature is 295 degrees K. If the lamp goes up to 300 deg. C when it is hot that would be 573 deg. K.
573 / 295 = 1.94

Multiply the "cold"pressure by 1.94...
147 * 1.94 = 228.92

The answer is that a xenon lamp has more than 200 pounds pressure in it when it's hot.
Of course if the lamp gets hotter than that the pressure would be more but the theory is the same, just plug in different numbers.

What I ask people is, "How would you like a piece of razor sharp glass hitting you in the face with 200 pounds of force?"

(If my math is off or if my theories don't hold please correct me.)



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