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Author Topic: optical qualities of nitrate vs acetate
Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-06-2001 09:57 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think the "old films look like crap" idea is one which derives primarily from the fact that distributors often circulate poor-quality prints of older titles that were made from inferior film elements, as well as poor-quality video transfers from lousy projection prints, rather than from good-quality intermediate elements.

The WB 75th fest prints did indeed look stunning, for the most part, as did the Columbia prints. The B&W prints were on ESTAR-base stock and didn't shed, either. This indicates to me that it _is_ possible to make top-quality prints today _if_ one is willing to spend the time and money necessary to do so.

I will also say that many original prints of older films are indeed razor-sharp, particularly 35mm IB Technicolor prints. I think that part of the reason why older B&W prints tend to look better than new B&W prints is simply that labs aren't as experienced with B&W as they once were, and so aren't as familiar with the techniques necessary to produce quality B&W prints. Aside from the shedding problem, Woody Allen's "Celebrity" looked great--it was very sharp and the density was terrific. The "Third Man" reissue prints looked great, too.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-06-2001 10:04 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Carbon Arc is a continous spectrum not a line spectrum because carbon arc is a black body source ( the incadescent carbon particles in the crater undergoing sublimation
Xenon arcs are a discharge source and as such are groups of lines that are grouped togather creating an illusion of a contious spectrum. Much like the method digital sound is reconstructed.
There is some thought that the brain works harder intigrating the xenon light source compared to carbon light creating fatigue.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-06-2001 10:12 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It has always been important to properly lubricate prints for optimum performance, especially with black-and-white:
Published Kodak Print Lubrication Recommendations

Unfortunately, most prints are NOT properly edgewaxed by the labs, due to recent environmental restrictions on the solvents used.

Fortunately, Kodak has made significant improvements during the last few years to both color and black-and-white print films, making them much more resistant to projector abrasion and flaking, even without additional post-process lubrication. But print lubrication will help provide additional protection, especially in projectors more prone to abrade the film edges.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Michael Barry
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 584
From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 04-06-2001 11:21 AM      Profile for Michael Barry   Email Michael Barry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I remember the Fritz Lang film 'The Big Heat' from the Columbia 75th aniversary retrospective. This black and white film, in Academy ratio, looked absolutely gorgeous. Superb contrast, sharpness that was beyond reproach and highlight and shadow detail that was breathtaking. This was a great example of black-and-white 'done right', if I may.

It is rare nowadays to come across any black and white, and rarely is it handled quite this well. I've projected A LOT of black and white both in 16 and 35MM, and an amazing print such as that one is all too rare. Not all the Columbia 75th aniversary prints were as good as that; that may have been the best. Unfortunately, Sidney Lumet's excellent 'Fail Safe' did not look very good at all, marred by poor contrast and sharpness. I am sure that this was not the intended look of Lumet's film.

Another stunning example that comes to mind is the French film 'Forbidden Games' ('Jeux Interdits') that was also in Academy ratio and coincidently, like the Lang film, also made in 1953. (Not from the Columbia retrospective, of course!)

I remember a more modern example, too - a black-and-white Belgian short made in 35MM just a few years ago (can't remember the name, unfortunately) which was tack-sharp and had a tremendously extended grey scale, like an Ansel Adams print. The point here is that black and white can still be done well! When it comes to quality black-and-white processing, the European labs - especially some of the French ones such as Eclair - are superb.

Although veering a little off-topic, I cannot discuss excellent black-and-white without a mention of one of its true masters, Sven Nykvist. The films that he photographed for Ingmar Bergman in the late 1950's and early 1960's are truly unique experiences and must be seen in 35MM to fully appreciate how peerless they are. Some stunning examples are 'The Virgin Spring' (the second feature I ever projected!), 'Through a Glass Darkly', 'Winter Light', 'The Silence' and 'Persona'. He later won an Oscar for his color work with Bergman on 'Cries and Whispers'.

In regards to 'the present' versus 'the past', I believe that both offer valuable lessons and experiences. True, given today's modern film stocks and lenses it can be said that those films of the past would look even better if that level of technology was available then (although perhaps altogether different in character) but 'film done right' of the past will always beat 'film done wrong' of the present or future.


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-06-2001 11:57 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Michael Barry said: "...'film done right' of the past will always beat 'film done wrong' of the present or future."

Well said! And I would add that "Film Done Right" with today's much improved technology will beat any other imaging technology, and still be very cost-effective.


------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Stefan Scholz
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 223
From: Schoenberg, Germany
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 04-07-2001 09:24 AM      Profile for Stefan Scholz   Author's Homepage   Email Stefan Scholz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have recently tried to follow a re-print of the Disney "20000 leagues under the sea". All I remember, and used to have in my collection beeing high school kid, looked really gorgeous in color and sharpness(IB Print c. 1955).
This 1980's reprint, was grainy below 16 mm quality with the lack of overall color schemes. You could also see 2 sets of Anty Piracy dots, so it was reprinted from a duped print, taken from an original IB with some scratches. That this could deliver no quality, and sometimes gives classic film a bad reputation is obvious.
I agree with John, that modern stock could theoreticly deliver outstanding result. Short production times, available light cinematography, time pressure at the labs and general short theatrical windows do not support the use of the quality offered.
I recently received a print of a major release from a major distributor, stated to have all 3 digital formats. Finally my dubbed version ended up beeing analoge.
A call at the distributor brought up, that prints struck in London were multiformat, but the larger number struck in Munich was not.
They even knew about the inferior color and density of theese prints, "but what could you do on Tuesday, if prints are expected in theatres on Thursday morning?"
Quite clear, without time pressure,quality would be better, in general.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-07-2001 10:26 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I personally agree with everything Scott Norwood said in his post. Most new prints of old films are really crap. There are a few exceptions to this on occasion.
Joe,
You need to get into film collecting so you can see what we are talking about as far as quality and differences are concerned. Your TV and my DTV cannot begin to replicate what a great black and white or I.B. Tech print looks like. I have been lucky enough to own original prints of many great films. Ya gotta see some of them to believe it.
Mark @ GTS

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-07-2001 12:43 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,
I think it has more to do with the optical qualities of Nitrate......not the dyes. While they did make allot of dye changes a given print was not always the same as the Techinicolor standard reel was anyway. There were normally slight differences in a given batch of prints. As far as dye quality I think they hit the mark in the early 50's then lost sight of it again after that. I always felt that the early 50's Tech was the best looking of the lot. Things seemed to get more muted in the 60's. It's also interesting to note that in England they used completely different dyes than were used here in the States. There is an excelletn 1950's book called Coulour Cinematography and it has the most comprehensive write up on Technicolor of any book out there(period). There is in this book a comparison chart of the different dyes that were used in both countries. Perhaps this is one reason why British I.B. always looked better than ours.
Mark @ GTS

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Joe Schmidt
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 172
From: Billings, Montana, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 04-07-2001 11:43 PM      Profile for Joe Schmidt   Email Joe Schmidt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nitrate base vs acetate...

Many, many years ago while the crust of the earth was still cooling... during one of my visits to LA, it was my great privilege to see a screening of an absolutely pristine nitrate print of “The Phantom Of the Opera” with Claude Rains [Universal, Technicolor, 1943.] Even more fun was that I was able to handle a bit of the film, while wearing white gloves, of course. Have never forgotten how marvelous this print looked on the screen, then, as though it had just been filmed “yesterday.”

Today, I’ve no idea where this print is other than probably in either the Academy’s or the UCLA archives. Hopefully it still exists and is being carefully looked after. I wish that everyone else here on the forum might have had my above experience, as it would settle once and for all the issue of the superiority of original IB Technicolor on the nitrate base [which never fades] over anything done today.

I have two copies of this movie in the film library; most recently Vault #36-3 having been updated off-satellite from American Movie Classics last year with an intro. This looks very good but I don’t think it originated from the IB-tech print of 1943: it would be much sharper if it had. This would be the definitive print to use for a television or DVD master if anyone here associated with the forums has any influence to track it down and get the job done. Provided, that is, if the 1943 print has held up thru today. One just never knows with nitrate, which is finicky, unstable stuff. You can have two reels side-by-side in the same vault and one will remain pristine while the other turns to powder.

And as John Pytlak pointed out, you could never run nitrate on a platter; apart from the heresy of chopping up an irreplaceable archival print. If it ever caught fire, it would not just burn up the platter and the booth, it would probably burn all the way down to the lobby and destroy the popcorn stand on its way to the Center of the Earth!

For other insight on this, look up the Byrd Theatre [Richmond VA] under Pictures, with its authentic carbon arcs all still in use, where it is remarked using the ancient generator with the arcs produces an even better quality of light than with the solid-state power supply of more recent vintage. What a fantastic place the Byrd is.

J.

UP


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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-08-2001 08:00 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe--I've seen the print that you're talking about. It's a reissue of Phantom from the late 1940s. It _is_ indeed stunning and was still mint when it played last February at the Egyptian in LA.

It is (or was at the time) part of the UCLA collection and apparently gets run about once a year for various festivals, etc. It is by far the best-looking 35mm print that I've ever seen.

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