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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Static Cling (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: Static Cling
Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 04-24-2001 09:02 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Randy, that bubble (or whatever you want to call it) in the film as it sits on the AW-3 platter is something I have seen a million times. If this occurs on a CFS platter, it can be a total disaster.

But, all is not lost. I found out the major cause of this bubble. It was caused by the platter being too close to the projector. If the lamp is out of focus or the if the dichloric filters are shot, the heat from the lamp collected on the film will not dissipate fast enough before it starts winding on the platter.

Result?

Tension building up in the convolutions. The problem was corrected by moving the platter at least 10 feet away from the projector. Other factors come to play, such as relative humidity, ambient temperature, etc. but did not seem to be the major cause.

I fought that problem for several weeks before I made my little discovery.



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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-24-2001 11:00 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Camel Hump... Monkey Bubble... whatever. I'm so used to people calling everything by 100 different names now!

The pic I put up is of a print that was atually roped. The hump is from the dents in the film pushing the layers apart. You'll also see the convolutions "weaving" up and down as it winds up on the platter. That's from the film trying to settle as it winds up.

I'm not proud to say that I'm getting good at diagnosing this problem. People will call me up and say, "The film is all staticy and I don't know why." Almost every time I go there I find the print spiked. This is why I took that picture. All I have to do is e-mail it to them and ask, "Is it like this?"


I never thought of the film getting too hot, though. It makes sense! The film is hot when it winds up and then cools, causing it to get tighter. Funky! I WILL have to store that one away in the back of my brain! (What's left of it. )

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Jonathan Haglund
Film Handler

Posts: 81
From: Irvine, CA, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 04-25-2001 03:18 AM      Profile for Jonathan Haglund   Author's Homepage   Email Jonathan Haglund   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The picture you have there is not always a print that has been damaged by pad rollers. (BTW, we at Edwards call it "sproket run," I don't know why) Sometimes that just happens as a result of static cling. It happens in the trailers of my Enemy at the Gates and the ends of most of the prints.

There's a rumor going around the circuit that Bounce will help. If all else fails, I have a box of it in the cabinet, but logically, it shouldn't work because its normally activated in a very hot dryer, not in room temperature.

One of our engeneers, who used to work at a very big lab, has experimented with all sorts of static solving problems. He suggests running the film upside down back to the platter and then back upright the next show; wiping static guard on the edges just like you say to use FilmGuard. Also, vacuming the booth at the end of the night and then pumping massive amounts of static guard (FilmGuard?) into the carpet to sit overnight. Restricted traffic then lessens the static.

Marbles are good too. Not always effective, but sometimes. Just roll a couple steel marbles on the platter and they should break apart any film that clings and gets to them.

Are platter systems grounded? Seems to me attaching a metal thing from the platter to the ground wall outlet should conduct static off the film.

As for thrown prints, I always hear to use suction cups, or suction cups with tape, and lots of them. Christie makes a hocky puck looking suction pad that when cleaned regularly, wont slide and definitely wont allow a print to throw. I use them on all my platters and havent thrown nuthin.

------------------
Jonathan Haglund
Edwards Theatre Circuit, Inc
Park Place 10

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-25-2001 03:36 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
This is the topic that just won't die. The ONLY thing I do is make sure my platters are properly timed (not the way it says to do it in the manual) and run FilmGuard. Why theaters go to such great pains is beyond me.

Two easy steps:
#1 Fix your equipment (meaning time the platters properly) so that they do not have the tendency to sling prints.

#2 Run media pads soaked in FilmGuard *or* wipe the edges of the print with FilmGuard. The FilmGuard kills the static. There's nothing left of it!

Maybe it's just too simple. Still, I have yet to have a brainwrap or a print toss in this manner. What's next? Some new way to use egg yolks to stop static?


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Jonathan Haglund
Film Handler

Posts: 81
From: Irvine, CA, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 04-25-2001 05:20 AM      Profile for Jonathan Haglund   Author's Homepage   Email Jonathan Haglund   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Egg yolks don't work. And neither do chicken feathers in case that was next.

Some of us have engeneering bosses who do not understand how to use filmguard and thus get mixed results in testing it and it doesn't get rolled out. Skeptical tech's further this stalled situation. In the mean while, I'm getting my filmguard from a friend and experimenting with other methods.

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Jonathan Haglund
Edwards Theatre Circuit, Inc
Park Place 10

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Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 04-25-2001 01:09 PM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Another cause of the infamous 'sponging' is a damaged guide roller on the platter. Fairfax #2 used to turn every print that went thru it into a giant squooshy spongy mess, and after MANY attempts to locate the trouble it finally was found: a small groove was cut into the side of one of the green 'keepers' (the kind that are like a semicircular shroud around the standard green Christie roller) and the film would ride into the groove and then hang enough to stretch the hell out of it. Replacing the roller cured the problem.

Misaligned (too-tight) pad rollers also cause this problem.

As for the theatres that aren't using Film-Guard and still launching prints you should seriously look into the Film-Tech method of timing AW3s, it works fantastic! Some minor tweeking is sometimes required but once dialed-in the platters perform flawlessly. In rare instances the platters may oscillate on taking up but Bevan at Christie says that is caused by a failing photocell or LED.

As for real static: GET FILM GUARD! NOW! the cost of FG is miniscule compared to the amounts of tickets refunded and damaged print costs from wrapped or thrown prints!!!! Don't experiment with snake-oil methods like Cling Free Sheets or Bounce... The only other approved method would be a humidifier in the booth (NOT-I repeat N O T) a 'vaporizer' or a device that actually emits a visible mist! Those will damage film, electronics, and metal items in a hurry!! A 'swamp cooler' is the ideal way to get more humidity into a booth, but they can be somewhat expensive. Smaller humidifiers are available but make sure that they are true evaporative units and not ones that emit a mist.

Hope this helps!

Aaron



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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 04-25-2001 01:29 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Film-Guard did not correct my Monkey Hump.

Neither did platter timing, guide roller alignment and wear verification, or uneven film tracking through the guidance kits, sprocket changes (in case one was straining sprocket perfs), or re-establishing the crown of the platter because the spacers fell out over the years. Re-focusing the bulb helped, but did not cure it. My filters are probably shot. I even went so far as to check the exhaust blower to make sure I had enough draw. Relative humidity and ambient temperature did not seem to be a major factor in this booth.

But moving the platter further away from the projector CURED the Monkey Hump.

Film-Guard is very good and will stop lots of problems, it will kill static. But it is not a cure-all.

As Brad suggested, a little preventative maintenance on the equipment will go a long way.


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Linda Learn
Film Handler

Posts: 16
From: Tunkhannock, PA, USA
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 04-25-2001 01:51 PM      Profile for Linda Learn   Author's Homepage   Email Linda Learn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just one more question....?

When the timing was off on our #2 platter of the AW3 the head "feed arm" would "bounce" back and forth, fast to slow, a horrible amount. I also noticed that the film from the top roller of the platters to the top roller on the projector head (about 6 feet) would bounce up and down several inches. And when that happened without the humidifier going full blast, we got the "bubble" that Randy showed in the picture. (and lots of sticking) We also got the film on the feed platter "shifting" around in the circle... not sliding out of alignment tho', just "creeping" in the circle and making the last lap next to the tailtuck budge with extra film. (We're still too poor to afford StickyPoos... I'm pushing for the exhausts to be hooked up next.)
I thought it was because of the jerking of the film as it was pulled by the bouncing film and the fast-slow jerking of the feed so I retimed the platter speed and jacked up the humidity.
That seems to help alot. Now we don't have to babysit the last third of the showing.
Is my reasoning near or is something I don't know about happening? I've never done this before and I'm going on my instincts and looking for reassurance.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 04-25-2001 02:06 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Linda, a jerking platter will cause some of the Monkey Humping, especially if you have the bitter end of the film nailed down on the platter with a damn paper clip or something.

And, if they jerk hard enough and the crown shims are missing from the CFS platters, it could very well toss your print.

As Brad mentioned, (and so did I) a little preventative maintenance will certainly help.

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Kyle Connolly
Film Handler

Posts: 13
From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 04-26-2001 10:47 AM      Profile for Kyle Connolly   Email Kyle Connolly   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I also have a good solution for this.

At our theatre, one of the projectionists came up with a great idea for completely eliminating film breaks due to static. We found out that the bubble in the film moves around the brain on the platter and always tries to jump one roller in the brain. (We use the strong platters) I've seen it so many times.

Our solution is simply this...

The theatre across the street (owned by the same company) recently closed down. It had a 70mm with 3 or 4 70mm brains. We took all of the outside protective rollers off of it, and went around to our 32 brains, and replaced that one roller that the film ALWAYS jumps with one twice as tall.

I remember the night we installed them... in the credits of "Coyote Ugly" I watched the film start to loop around, the next layer pushed it up, and it couldn't make it over. It was incredible.

Since we installed the system about a year ago, we have not had a SINGLE film break due to static. If anyone is interested, I will take a picture and post it.

Looking at the Christie brains, I don't know if it will work, but I know it will on Strong.

------------------
-@-

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 04-26-2001 10:59 AM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How about film scratches? I am not that familure with the strong platters but if there is a roller there the film must touch it. With the larger roller does the picture area touch the middle surface of the roller. Do you see any scratching of the prints?

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