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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Soundtrack UP or DOWN?!?!?! (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: Soundtrack UP or DOWN?!?!?!
Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 05-02-2001 11:11 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One issue that hasn't so far been mentioned in the 'soundtrack up or down' debate is the soundtrack itself. The fact that many projectionists edge-mark a few feet of stock either side of a reel end to help find it when packing off the print is surely an argument in favour of mounting prints soundtrack down (base out).

OK, it makes no difference what side you use with SDDS, but I have noticed Dolby digital tracks failing where the soundtrack side has been heavily edge-marked and heard increased distortion on variable area analogue sound. So that is one of two reasons why I mount prints track down.

The other is that our projection boxes have split-unit air conditioners which dehumidify the air as well as cool it. This results in very low humidity in the boxes (so low in fact that my mouth starts to feel dry after working in one for an hour or so) and so after 2-3 days the prints start to take on a noticeable positive curl (as described by John P).

I have taken on board Joe's point about the emulsion catching the platter surface on take-up and scratching, and Brad's point about the risk of damage during start-up, but I still believe that the potential problems caused by distorting the stock in such low humidity are a greater risk.

I do agree totally with Randy that you have to standardise on one method of mounting and lacing up, and then stick to it. Once people start doing their own thing it vastly increases the chance of someone making a mistake which causes a presentation cock-up (e.g. lacing the projector back to front).


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-02-2001 11:28 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't think the UK's climate is much different from Torontos and even in the summer we are still pumping humitiy into the booth air not trying to remove it.
I think you need to have a mechanical engineer look at your situation

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-02-2001 11:49 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
So I got it backwards there, John? Oops.

Ok for clarification to anyone else (like me and the couple of others that emailed me just now) who had this terminology backwards:


The picture above represents a piece of film as viewed lengthwise as it lays on a flat surface with the emulsion side up. This is POSITIVE CURL.


The picture above represents a piece of film as viewed lengthwise as it lays on a flat surface with the emulsion side up. This is NEGATIVE CURL.

"Positive" and "negative" curl is just defined that way. Neither is "bad" or "worse". (Quoted from John Pytlak)

So my statement should read "I have never seen a polyester print with a negative curl". Acetate base film is of course, a completely different ballgame.


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-02-2001 12:03 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually here is an interesting point
IMAX if running 2d on reels runs emuslion out of the feed side.
If they have the Qt platter is runs emulsion in.
If you run 3d either way one eye is emulsion in and the other emulsion out.
I haven't heard of any Imax theatres having curl related problems

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-02-2001 12:36 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gordon: I recall IMAX has fairly tight specs on maintaining proper humidity in the projection room, and the ones I've visited usually are pretty close to the ideal of 50% RH.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-02-2001 12:39 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad, I agree that in most cases, polyester prints will either lie flat, or have POSITIVE curl. But if the humidity gets really sticky (>80%), they will curl in the other direction.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-02-2001 12:46 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John many of the older ones are not very well controlled right now as we type it is 21 degrees and 26%

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-02-2001 12:54 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At 26% RH your 70mm prints are fairly flat? That's a pleasant surprise.

At 21 degrees, you must wear woolen mittens and mukluks when you handle film up north across Lake Ontario.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-02-2001 01:05 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
21 degrees C
Hopefully the engineers will finally finish our new steam centralized humidifier.
Since the booth AC runs year round because of the equipment heat generated and the large volume of exhaust it is no small feet to get humidity in the air
Somedays it is so dry we water the carpet in the booth

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Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3686
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 05-02-2001 03:08 PM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
Here in Dearborn, we have the steam thing going on the HVAC unit and four portables in the booth. The HVAC can keep up during the summer, but in the winter we're running everything full blast and usually run 40% (35% RH). Right now its 68.9 deg F and 53% (45% RH). Happy film.


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Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 05-02-2001 03:12 PM      Profile for Dave Bird   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Bird   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If my film is threaded properly, which side is the emulsion on? Back (lamp) or front (lens)? Thanks.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-02-2001 03:13 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Lamphouse side = emulsion
Lens side = base

Most typical changeover houses wind their supply reel emulsion out and their takeup reel emulsion in.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-02-2001 03:32 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For 35mm prints, standard SMPTE 194 specifies "The photographic emulsion shall be on the side of the film which faces away from the projector lens".

Of course in a camera, the emulsion of the negative faces the camera lens. When an emulsion-to-emulsion contact print is made of the negative, the image is flipped, such that the print emulsion must now face AWAY from the lens to project properly. Even when a duplicate negative is used to make the release prints, the normal negative ---> interpositive ---> duplicate negative ---> release print printing system maintains the correct print orientation.

Here is a link to some really good Kodak information about printing and film systems:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/h1/printing.shtml

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-02-2001 03:39 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The only important exception to the rule about emulsion/base side is 16mm reversal original material and some 16mm prints on Ektachrome or Kodachrome stock, where the emulsion side is actually on the lens side of the film. In the case of prints, this requires re-focusing the soundhead optics in order to account for the different position of the track.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-02-2001 03:49 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, 16mm can be either orientation, depending on the printing system used.

35mm and 70mm theatrical prints normally have the emulsion face AWAY from the projector lens. Some IMAX 3D prints may have emulsion to the lens.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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