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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Covering films overnight? (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Covering films overnight?
John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-21-2001 09:04 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Again, it's always a good idea to let the projectors run a few minutes without film (without load) to "loosen up" and get the oil flowing and overnight kinks out of any belts. I was taught this was especially important in a drive-in, where the booth could get quite cold during the non-summer nights.

IMHO, compressed air should NOT be used. Indeed, you are just stirring up the dirt. High pressure air jets can be especially bad around lenses, where dirt, moisture and oil can be forced into the optics. Use a vacuum and brush to pick up any loose debris inside the mechanism (make a fitting so you can have a tiny vacuum hose for tight spots). Wipe up any oil with an absorbent cloth.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 05-21-2001 09:15 PM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John, I wondered if you would react in horror. I have to say that I came into the industry from a different part of film, specifically photography for television. I had ample opportunity to watch film dry, and learn the characteristics of wet, dry, and damp emulsion, even watching wet 16mm get slapped on a film chain. Wet film is a bitch, no two ways around it. From personal experience, I still have nightmares of a brain wrap I once had around the drive shaft of an Eprad platter, caused by a drip through a vent onto a film on the top platter. There is no way to recover gracefully from one of those.

Damp film is funky, sticky, and requires a lot of TLC to baby until it is dry. By a damp rag, I mean a lint-free rag spritzed once with a spray bottle of (ditilled) water and massaged, just to give the rag some "tack." This will not wet or even dampen the edge of the film as you brush up the dust. It also will not redistribute or remove the edge wax, which could happen when using some solvents. Using Film-guard could be an option, though. I leave that one to Brad's expertise.

I suppose one could vacuum a film on a platter, though I've never seen it done as far as I can recall. Could that cause static problems? Air moving at velocity can be a way of moving electical charges.

I'd be curious to learn the results of tests of the various methods. I suspect the _lightly_ dampened rag might win out in removing dust.

Re: starting cars and gunning them. I can think of many many shade tree mechanics that do this. When I lived in apartments, I used to take perverse delight in walking up to these fellows intent on tuning engines and waking me up at 9AM on Sunday morning after I'd just arrived home from the midnight shows, and casually saying "Ya know... you could throw a rod doing that." It usually wasn't appreciated, but it was fun anyway.

One area where the wet film and pre-threading could have a serious effect is if a damp film were to stick in the gate from being left overnight. In a contest between stuck polyester and an older fiber gear, my money would be on the polyester being stronger.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-21-2001 11:02 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If using a compressor to clean a projector was used as an adjunct to cleaning with a cloth & brush I would have no problem with it. Problem is that people seem to think that a compressor actually cleans a projector.

1) Any dust in the projector is instantly accelerated to the speed of sound. No matter how inoccuous dust may seem when it's standing still, it would be like a sandblaster when it's moving at that speed. Continued use of a comressor without removing the bulk of the dust, IMHO is just asking for trouble.

2) I have seen projectors that have been cleaned exclusively with compressors. The visible areas like the trap look squeaky clean. But when you remove the trap you'll find all kinds of dust bunnies caked around the inner workings. Same goes for the sprocket bearings. I have taken sprockets off and found a ring of icky-goo caked around the shaft. This is rarely the case with projectors that are cleaned exclusively by hand.

3) When you compress air you are also compressing the water vapor in the air. Take the nozzle and put it up against a smooth surface or a piece of glass or something. You'll see little droplets of water forming as it is blown out at high speed. You might as well clean the projector with a garden hose!

4) If you use a compressor that has oil in it and don't use a oil/vapor trap you'll get water vapor AND oil vapor. That's even worse.

5) How many people do you think would really be careful and not knock the nozzle around inside the projector?

6) Why the heck do you want to lug the compressor around with you? You can do a good job of cleaning the thing with a shop rag AND it'll take you a fraction of the time.

As an occasional thing (as part of your take-apart cleaning, for instance) the compressor is OK if you use it carefully.

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Bill Enos
Film God

Posts: 2081
From: Richmond, Virginia, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 05-21-2001 11:35 PM      Profile for Bill Enos   Email Bill Enos   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On Warm up and lubrication. Whether it's a start up for a "warm up" or starting the feature ,gears are just as likely to strip on the initial surge and lubrication starts immediately assuming oil level is proper and the booth temp. isn't too low, so what's the difference other than the unnecessary hours of operation accumulating for so called warm up. I put a tachometer on the motor several years ago just to see if there was any difference with and without film--there was none. This is with a reel to reel system so there is the load of pulling the supply reel and take up, the drag is minimal.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-22-2001 08:46 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bill:

I agree that film puts a negligible load on the projector drive train (you measured no acceleration difference with your tachometer), but the load on the intermittent components is significantly higher with film in the gate. The gate often provides quite a bit of back-tension on the pulldown sprocket, especially when the film has been sitting in the gate overnight (core-set and "stiction" of the emulsion). Even a few ounces of film tension puts quite a strain on that relatively tiny starwheel slot and cam pin at the high accelerations required. Running the projector a few minutes without film to "warm it up" and distribute the oil is good practice.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Steve Anderson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 168
From: Nashville, TN
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 05-23-2001 01:01 PM      Profile for Steve Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Steve Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Unfortunately when I worked for Regal 27 they would schedule you in at 11am with a 11:30 start for some of the features. Also when you are by yourself with 27 projectors to thread it got pretty active those first 25 minutes....but I loved it!

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-23-2001 01:09 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
With 27 projectors, a little extra time to let each of them "loosen up" before the show would probably pay dividends in reduced repair costs. The temptation in this kind of situation is to thread up the night before as each final show drops, to save time in the morning. For the reasons cited in this thread, avoid the temptation.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Tom Evans
Film Handler

Posts: 13
From: UK, Birmingham.
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 05-23-2001 08:36 PM      Profile for Tom Evans   Email Tom Evans   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A few ideas:-

You know how powerful the air compressor can be, well imagine if the air compressor sucked air into the nozzle instead of out. Imagine all the loose film debris and gunk you could clear up - but be careful you don't suck the oil straight out of the machine

Has anyone thought about a platter cover that can cover the film when it is playing?

Also, I was trying to explain to a fellow workmate that running PTR rollers on the first show of a brand new print was pointless as this must compress the dirt and particles collected from the adverts and trailers into the virginal film emulsion, is this true?

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Jeffry L. Johnson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 809
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 05-29-2001 10:07 AM      Profile for Jeffry L. Johnson   Author's Homepage   Email Jeffry L. Johnson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you use PTR's on a new print you'll be amazed at all the orange paint flecks and fibers from the shipping can liner that will be removed from the print.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-29-2001 11:12 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't see the problem with PTR rollers being used with new prints.

Personally, I don't think that PTR rollers are as useless are others have said. They seem to be effective _if_ the print is new or in mint condition from day 1 and _if_ the PTR rollers are used for _every_ show. Under these conditions, the rollers are only picking up small amounts of dirt and don't get overloaded to the point where they simply move dirt around. In this situation, they do seem to help keep prints looking good for longer periods than they otherwise would (without any film cleaning device in use).

Having said this, I do think that Filmguard is more effective (when used with a media cleaner) and is extremely useful for older prints, where PTR rollers tend to be rather useless.

If you have only PTR rollers and no media cleaners, they are certainly better than nothing, but I'd take FG and the Kelmar/Christie cleaner over PTR rollers if the option existed.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-30-2001 02:02 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jeffry L. Johnson said:

"If you use PTR's on a new print you'll be amazed at all the orange paint flecks and fibers from the shipping can liner that will be removed from the print."

One of the things about PTR film cleaning is that it is very easy to analyze the dirt that is being removed from the film.

Under a microscope, it is easy to tell whether the debris is film-related like base or emulsion, or from other sources like construction debris, bearing wear, packing materials, carpeting, linty clothing, or even dandruff. The most "unusual" debris captured on a PTR that Kodak analyzed was identified as "hemp". Wonder where THAT came from???


------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 06-25-2001 04:56 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with covering prints-especially if you do not have a good booth air filtration system! Also make sure platter decks are clean! Keep covers clean, folded and off the floor. Another thing to consider; remove pay-out head(brain) from deck and place it aside or over the cover. Our area service tech told us of one case where the prints were covered, but platter was not turned off over-night. Cover had cought in the pay-out head, and the platter tried to rotate but could not. Result: fried platter motors and wiring.

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Steven Privett
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 208
From: Pasadena, TX, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 06-06-2003 02:56 AM      Profile for Steven Privett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 


[ 10-03-2003, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Steven Privett ]

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Carl Martin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1424
From: Oakland, CA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 06-06-2003 04:00 AM      Profile for Carl Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Carl Martin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
i've been mulling over throwing them in the laundry. the one thing that worried me was whether the elastic band around the edge would hold up or deteriorate. admittedly this isn't that big an issue for us as only one of our covers has working elastic.

when removing the covers, we grab the center and lift up, collapsing them umbrella-style, then fold them in half. this nicely isolates the 2 sides. unfortunately it tends to end up on a floor-like surface in one booth. and our floors are not clean. i like the idea of a drawer, but i fear that if it's not visible it won't get used. for the time being there are too many dust hazards in our booths not to use them.

some interesting points in this thread. we never thread the night before, but i always saw it as merely a dirt issue. the motor does get run every morning as part of routine cleaning, just for a few seconds though.

carl

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Michael Rourke
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 159
From: San Luis Obispo, Central Coast of CA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 06-06-2003 04:44 AM      Profile for Michael Rourke   Email Michael Rourke   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just get one of those single drawer plastic containers they sell at K-Mart or Wal-Mart and put it in between the legs of your platter and keep the covers in there.

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