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Author Topic: SDDS / SRD reliability
Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-04-2001 07:54 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Never use digital to do analog work.

Too many people are wooed by the word "digital" these days. Just because it's digital doesn't mean it's good.

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 06-04-2001 09:40 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Like it or not, everything is being run by computer today. So much of a CP500 was digital, it's no wonder Dolby decided (with the CP650) to just go the extra step with a digital signal processor and make everything digital. If you want to change the way the emulating is being done, you can now just download new DSP code. I think SDDS has always done it this way.

While the CP650's digital emulation of SR may not be exactly the same as a regular analog SR card, it's sort of a moot point, because digital is being pushed. I would guess very few people are going to buy a CP650 and not use it with a digital sound source. So, the SR emulation will be rarely used.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-04-2001 09:51 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I still have to agree with Joe on this one.

When emulating an analogue signal with a digital system you inevitably run into the "squaring the circle" problem. No matter how good your D/A or A/D converters you will only be able to come CLOSE to replicating the original analogue signal.

Of course there may come a time when digital systems can come closer to replicating an analogue signal than the technology we have today. As much as I like computers and junk like that I have to draw the line at using technology just for technlolgy's sake. There's just too much of that going on today and I think it's detrimantal to quality.

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James R. Hammonds, Jr
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 931
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 06-04-2001 09:59 PM      Profile for James R. Hammonds, Jr   Email James R. Hammonds, Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
<<As much as I like computers and junk like that I have to draw the line at using technology just for technlolgy's sake. There's just too much of that going on today and I think it's detrimantal to quality.>>

kind of like shooting movies on DV and releasing them on film because its a "cool" new way to make "films" and cause its cheaper.

DV movies look terrible when transferred to film, and these people still insist on calling themselves "filmmakers"

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Ken Jacquart
Film Handler

Posts: 82
From: San Francisco, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 06-04-2001 11:25 PM      Profile for Ken Jacquart   Author's Homepage   Email Ken Jacquart   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Squaring the Circle" will not happen if one obeys the Nyquist Theorem (along with other things). The analog wave form will be reproduced... exactly. Digital audio, when done right, kicks ass.

ken

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-05-2001 12:16 AM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have not heard of the Nyquist Theorem.

I took Algebra I and Algebra II in High School but instead of taking Trig. and Calc. I took Geometry. After that, in college i took a couple of elementary Statistics classes. Is this something I would have learned if I had taken the other track? Or, is this something completely different?

Clue me in!

PS: I like digital Video but I think it should be kept in the realm of the computer screen and the internet, NOT on the big screen. LIke I said, technology is cool but you have to know where to draw the line.

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James R. Hammonds, Jr
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 931
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 06-05-2001 12:57 AM      Profile for James R. Hammonds, Jr   Email James R. Hammonds, Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, I have no problem with digital video if thats the best your budget allows, but to use it just to cut costs is plain rediculous. The bad part is that there are people who think it will be as good as film, but in reality, they might not have seen a DV movie transfered to film yet sine this has mainly been limited to the art houses and film festivals. I dont know of any big releases that have used digital video except SPY KIDS.

I know a guy who i graduated from college with who made a pretty good quality 5 part movie (15 minutes each since it was run as a television series for our school's cable station). Our school uses mini DV cameras which produce really good video images on a TV screen, and based on this, cost, and efficiency, he said that when he starts making big movies he goig to use all digital.

I was pleased, however, that at our annual leadership conference that two different people in two different meetings said "if you can shoot film, shoot film."
At least someone in the video/film industry knows film isbetter besides just us.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-05-2001 02:03 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I shoot in DV and I'm sure I would be horrified to see any of my creations transferred to film.

Ken is right. Digital audio kicks ass. Most of the time. I don't really care for the digital EQing scheme in the latest processors from Sony and Dolby. There is just no way that you can achieve the same exact curve with digital EQ as with an analog EQ each and every single time. But that's a different story.

The point I am trying to make is that people automatically associate the word "digital" with "the best it can possibly be". Have you seen ads for the latest TV hard disc recorders, etc? They advertise that they record up to 4 billion hours (or so) in "full digital quality". Well, since it's digital it must kick the living hell out of VHS! Nope. When you see the 4 billion hour low quality mode it's not even as good as Video CD. And Video CD is noticably worse than VHS (even worse than VHS in EP if you ask me, just due to the artifacting). MPEG sucks (MPEG 2 is better, but I can still see lots of artifacts on DVDs, especially in dark scenes). But its digital, right? So no matter how bad it is, it's still waaaay better than any analog recording device!

"Digital" and "Digital Done Right" are two completely different things! Don't fall for a cinema processor just 'cause it says "digital processing" in the ads. That doesn't mean it will sound good. Audition it for yourself first!


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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-05-2001 06:39 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I personally have a pretty low opinion of DV as a video format, even for television use. To me, it looks _substantially_ worse than Betacam SP (a 14-year-old analog format) because of the compression artifacts and other problems.

I agree that it's better than any other home format currently available and that the equipment is far cheaper than the Betacam gear, but neither comment is saying very much, unfortunately.

(I once looked into the cost of renting Betacam equipment. It turned out to be cheaper to shoot and edit 16mm film for the short that I was working on...)

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Tao Yue
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 209
From: Princeton, NJ
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 06-05-2001 07:54 AM      Profile for Tao Yue   Author's Homepage   Email Tao Yue   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Nyquist Theorem is not generally taught in high school mathematics courses. It's usually taught in Electrical Engineering courses, and applies to digital sampling of audio. The theorem states that to accurately represent a continuous analog waveform using discrete samples, the rate of sampling must be twice the component frequency. For example, standard CD audio is sampled at 44.1 KHz, meaning that no sounds greater than 22.05 KHz are recorded. This is actually not caused by the sampling itself -- frequencies greater than 22.05 KHz would simply get distorted beyond recognition. (See http://www.opus1.com/~violist/help/nyquist.html for an example of what happens to a signal above half the sampling frequency.) The Nyquist Theorem is applied by using a low-pass filter to remove all frequencies above that threshold.

However, it is not true, as Ken stated, that the waveform will be reproduced exactly. Take a sine wave sampled at exactly twice its frequency. Try it yourself -- instead of a curvy sine wave, you'll get a triangle wave. At 22.05 KHz, you'd be hard-pressed to notice the difference. Hook up a function generator to a set of headphones and compare low-frequency sine and triangle waves, though, and you'll notice a distinct difference.

The Nyquist Theorem ensures an accurate epresentation of the signal, but "squaring the circle" (or in this case, triangling the sine) always occurs when trying to represent a continuous input discretely.

--
Tao Yue
MIT '04 Course 6-2: Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
Projectionist, MIT Lecture Series Committee

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-05-2001 10:02 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
With digital imaging systems, a low pass filter is sometimes necessary to reduce "aliasing". In effect, if the system is allowed to be too sharp, it could be prone to annoying moire patterns. You can often see this problem in digital video when you have moire in finely-detailed patterned fabrics, picket fences, venetian blinds, screen doors, etc. For examples, see the thread where Evans Criswell discusses sampling frequency and aliasing.

Any digital camera or projection system that uses a fixed array of pixels may suffer aliasing unless a low-pass filter or defocusing are used to minimize the risk of interference.

Here are some links:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/digital/dlc/
http://www.spie.org/web/meetings/programs/or97/sc/or97_sc22.html
http://www.imagingspectrum.com/portraitcomparison.htm
http://www.kodak.com/cluster/global/en/service/faqs/faq1082.shtml

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-05-2001 11:51 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve Guttag said in an earlier posting.....
"So far, the only SR emulation that I have found pleasing is the Dolby CP-650...none of the other analog (including Dolby's CAT222SR/A) nor digital attempts sound good to me...very harsh and non natural. So far, the CP650 has been a pleasing sounding processor for both digital and analog....I was pleasently surprised."

Steve,
Give a listen to the Panastereo Processor with the new SR card. You'll be very surprised at how much better it sounds!

Joe said
"Too many people are wooed by the word "digital" these days. Just because it's digital doesn't mean it's good.

Joe, you hit the nail on the head!
Take the Panastero Processor for instance. Blows em all out of the water by a long shot.

IMHO, Dolby should have and could have lowered the price of the CP650 substantially as it is far cheaper to mass produce than the 500 was.
Mark @ GTS


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Ken Jacquart
Film Handler

Posts: 82
From: San Francisco, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 06-06-2001 12:30 PM      Profile for Ken Jacquart   Author's Homepage   Email Ken Jacquart   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tao,

A properly designed A/D and D/A conversion process does not simply sample a waveform, and then reconstruct the samples by ordinary linear interpolation (connect the dots). This would require a tremendously high sample rate to adequately reproduce the input signal. There are 'other things' that go along with following Nyquists theorem to stay out of trouble. One of those things is to low pass the input signal at the half-sampling frequency. This is also know as an anti-aliasing filter. Another one of 'those things' is to provide an (ideal) low pass reconstruction filter at the output, also known as a smoothing filter. This filter will have a sin(x)/x impulse response. When samples of the bandlimited input signal (remember the low pass filter at the input?) are processed with this impulse response, the input signal will be exactly reproduced...there's more too...

ken

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-06-2001 12:45 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken --- the same EE communication theory that applies to digital images also applies to digital sound (e.g., low pass filters to reduce aliasing, Nyquist theorem, etc.).

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Bill Langfield
Master Film Handler

Posts: 280
From: Prospect, NSW, Australia
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 06-06-2001 01:13 PM      Profile for Bill Langfield   Author's Homepage   Email Bill Langfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark. yup, Nothing wrong with Panalogic.

SDR is here to stay. So Dolby will rule.
even ads are srd these days (even with the bad error rates)
I prefer DTS as it has less drop outs.

Bill.

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