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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Screens without masking
Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 06-17-2001 04:24 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some of the screening rooms at the Carmike Sikes Ten in Wichita Falls have no masking at all, just a 1.85:1 screen. These are in mainly the smaller auditoriums.

My opinion. I hate it. I watched "The Mummy Returns" on one of these screens and found it very distracting. The image composition was pretty screwed up. I'm not all that fond of vertical masking either (why should "Driving Miss Daisy" have a larger image than "Die Hard"?). But at least with vertical masking you are getting to see the film presented in its proper aspect ratio. Side masking is the best.

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Evans A Criswell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1579
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 06-17-2001 05:19 PM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, I believe the only screens in my area that wre masked 2:1 were at the old Cobb Cinema 8, which closed in May 2000. The only screens in my area not masked properly (1.85:1 only) were the ones I specifically listed in my post earlier. This is good, since top masking would be a cheap way to solve the problem, since nearly all the auditoriums are only 28 feet wide that have this problem. It's not a perfect solution, but far better than what is currently there. Top masking is an order of magnitude better than no masking. Side masking in an auditorium 28 feet wide with a high ceiling would not work well since the screen would be extremely small for "flat" images.

Roger Frazee did the specs for Regal River Oaks Cinema 8 in Decatur, a theatre that does not have the "fixed masking" problem. He specified excellent projection equipment, lenses, and sound equipment. I know that he knows what he's doing. He's probably having a hard time convincing other higher-ups at Regal that the "fixed masking" problem in Huntsville in those 20 auditoriums is worth fixing. I'm sure he would want it fixed himself if he were the sole decision-maker, but unfortunately, technical people and management people typically do not see eye to eye on things. Management tends to see something as a problem only if they see it as something that will cost them money. Either the customers are going to have to be educated and start demanding that this "scope at 1.85:1" practice be stopped, or the studios themselves are going to have to start penalizing the theatres that do so by, say, not allowing them to show their scope prints on those smaller screens.

Speaking of sloppily cut aperture plates, I saw Atlantis at Regal Madison Square 12 last Friday night. If new Christie projectors have been installed there recently, the aperture plate was cut in a sloppy way that made rough, uneven globs protrude into the right edge of the image. Of course, the theatre was very busy that night and I didn't ask if new projectors had been installed, or if the Ballantynes were still there. Boy, that would be an awkward question to ask an average staff member, wouldn't it? I've never had a conversation with the manager of this theatre before.

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Evans A Criswell
Huntsville-Decatur Movie Theatre Info Site


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 06-18-2001 12:37 AM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Evans, I still disagree with the top only masking change unless the screen is excessively high off the floor. Then, it may be the only option available.

But how many people in the booth are willing to go the extra step to reframe the movie in event of a format change? Unfortunately, the answer is not many these days. One out-of-frame presented to the audience is one too many.

If the screen is three to four feet off the floor as I have seen in several instances, The sightline will be enhanced to those in the rear of the auditoriums if top and bottom movable masking was employed.

That's where most of the people sit anyway.

Nothing like sitting behind someone in the rear rows that has one of those "Poof" hairdos that block the bottom 1/3 of the screen. That has driven me out of movie watching, even when I don't have to pay to see the damn thing. Time for Blockbuster videos......

For the most part, new construction from Regal, Cinepuke, and others have corrected that problem by proper design. On the other hand, there are thousands of older theaters using a fixed 1.85 or 2:1 masking.

Some can be fixed only with top movable masking, but many can also be fixed with both top and bottom movable masking.

I hope Roger Frazee from Regal doesn't have a cast-in-stone policy about using top movable only. A poorly designed auditorium is loaded with compromises. One more in the positive direction just might rent some more seats.....

Roger has plenty of those in the older houses. So does everybody else, for that matter.

It does not require a lot of additional expense to correct some of the the masking errors, other than possibly re-lensing the scope format. I don't think that is a big deal, as many theaters have a healty inventory of projection lenses that are just sitting on the shelf.

Personally, I would rather slightly compromise two or three front rows of seating than to sacrifice four or five rows of prime seats in the back 1/3 of the auditorium. Another reason I don't mind compromising like this is because people do complain the picture is "too big" in the front rows, so they don't use them anyway.

I have seen frustrated movie goers scurry around in the auditorium looking for a place where they can sit without having the POOF hairdos in front of them, or where they can see most of the screen.


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Evans A Criswell
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 06-18-2001 10:08 AM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, all of the auditoriums I mentioned have stadium seating, so the sightlines aren't really a problem. I agree that top masking isn't ideal, but it's a significant step up from no masking at all. With the current setup, a good chuck of scope images are lost. With top masking, although the scope image would be smaller, at least it would all be there to see. I haven't seen any new Regal auditoriums that use vertically-moving masking, so I don't know if top masking alone is used in those cases, or if both top and bottom masking are used.

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Evans A Criswell
Huntsville-Decatur Movie Theatre Info Site

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John Walsh
Film God

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From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 06-18-2001 11:39 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wait, Evans, are you saying that there are some screens in your area that are fixed at 1.85 ratio?! I've heard of 2:1, but not 1.85:1. That's pretty bad. Any company that would do that is just *too* cheap and hardly worth considering as a "theater." There will always someone who is just too cheap; nothing can be done with them.

Personally, I see very little wrong with top-only adjustable masking. I know it's not ideal, but if other details are done correctly, I would gladly accept it over the many other worse things that can be done. People demand large screens, and theaters should try to give it to them (and I don't mean go overboard with a 99ft wide screen). That is what makes them come to the theater, rather then stay home. Depending on the front wall area avaiable, adjustable top masking may be the only way to go. This gives each format (1.85 or 2.39) the largest image possible.

A problem with adjustable top masking is the framing usually must be changed to recenter the image when going from one fromat to another. A simple mark on the framing knob will show where it should be set. This is a decision management must make: ("We choose to have a narrower auditourium, which means top masking, which means a person must adjust the framing.") If adjusting the framing knob is too much for the operators at a theater, then they are (again) too cheap, and not worth going to.

I'd rather have proper images, but with no masking at all, then cropped images.

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John T. Hendrickson, Jr
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 889
From: Freehold, NJ, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 06-18-2001 02:55 PM      Profile for John T. Hendrickson, Jr   Email John T. Hendrickson, Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've been reading the posts on this topic in somewhat of a state of disbelief. If some theaters are going to show Scope in a format with flat masking, then we might just as well tell patrons to go home and wait for the video release. IMHO nothing beats a properly framed and masked Scope picture on a large screen.

Isn't that what we are all about, folks?

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Evans A Criswell
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 06-18-2001 04:37 PM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Wait, Evans, are you saying that there are some screens in your area that are fixed at 1.85 ratio?! I've heard of 2:1, but not 1.85:1. That's pretty bad.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Severe cropping occurs when scope images are shown on those screens. Cobb built those screens that way (20 of them out of the 30 in the two theatres I'm mentioning) and Regal took them over on August 1, 1997. One theatre, the Madison Square 12, was built with 8 screens and opened June 28, 1985, with 4 screens with side masking and 4 screens fixed at 1.85:1 only (non-adjustable). On May 22, 1992, 4 more screens with 1.85:1-only size with no adjustable masking opened for use. On July 15, 1994, Hollywood 16 opened with 4 auditorums with adjustable masking and 12 screens with fixed 1.85:1 non-adjustable masking. Regal recently added two more auditoriums in late 1999 that have adjustable side masking, bring the number of screens to 18 at that location.

Unless Regal has gone in and changed these and put in adjustable masking in the last couple of months, two thirds of the screens in those two theatres are flat only and scope movies get cropped to the "flat" size when shown.

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Evans A Criswell
Huntsville-Decatur Movie Theatre Info Site


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Brad Miller
Administrator

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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-18-2001 10:52 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
"A problem with adjustable top masking is the framing usually must be changed to recenter the image when going from one fromat to another. A simple mark on the framing knob will show where it should be set."

John, if you have lens turrets, this can and should have been aligned properly with the turret's adjustments. If you have single lens holders, the collars can be shimmed to compensate for this. Sounds like someone did not set up your lenses properly. Never should a framing adjustment be needed when switching formats...top or side masking.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 06-18-2001 11:54 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad, in many instances, it requires actual cranking of the frame knob. The error can be large enough where shims will not compensate for it, especially on older projectors. It also screws up the optical axis, resulting in lousy focus depth, especially in short throw huge screen auditoriums.

Also, Brad, AMEN to your framing knob comment.


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
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 - posted 06-19-2001 09:51 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad some turrets do not allow for the lens to be offset and in some cases there isn't clearance for shims either

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Brad Miller
Administrator

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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-19-2001 11:22 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Gord, which projectors? I've not run across this restriction yet, but then again I've only worked with the popular American machines.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
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 - posted 06-19-2001 01:03 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some models of turrets by ernamann, prevost, cinemecanica,
Also any of the magnacom/anamorphic slider or turrets on the century/simplex
Also offsetting the lens can represent a light loss since the optical system is no longer in a straight line

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-19-2001 01:35 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
I've never noticed enough light loss to warrant having formats change out of frame. I'm sure it is there no doubt, but I think most people would rather have their presentation stay in frame during a format change.

Of course none of this would be an issue if the designers would stop doing common width systems.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-19-2001 02:02 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In a constant height system even thought the projected flat image is smaller the light is less due to the smaller apperture size and greater magnification. With constant width systems this is even worse.
If you align the lamphouse for a offset flat lens the larger scope apperture will not have a very flat light field through it.
It is best to have both top and bottom movable masking if one must have constant width

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John Walsh
Film God

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From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 06-19-2001 06:34 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How far the framing knob must be moved depends on the screen height and the throw. Depending on these factors, it might not be possible to compensate.

Here are two actual theaters:

Example 1:
Cinemeccanica V8 single lens, 60ft throw,
Flat 23' x 12'7" - 55mm lens
Scope 23' x 9'10" - 95mm lens

At this theater, dumb luck prevailed. By simply threading the film in the gate one sprocket up (out of frame) scope is centered without needing to move the framing knob. I'm guessing that since sprocket holes are about 0.187" apart, the scope lens would have moved down by that same amount to re-center the on-screen image without using the framing knob, but still have the film in the normal projector center.

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Example 2:
Century SA single lens, 120ft throw,
Flat 24' x 14'- 105mm lens
Scope 24' x 11'- 180mm lens

Here the framing knob had to be moved only slightly.

-------------------

I’m not familiar with all lens holders, but I can’t see any way to make a Cinemeccanica, AAII, Simplex or Century single lens holder go up/down for just one format. While I suppose a (5 inch to 2 25/32”) lens bushing could be specially-machined to position the scope lens, I’m sort of not counting that. Both of the example theaters were done before Schneider or ISCO made that lens offset thing that goes into a 5 inch lens holder; using that wasn’t an option at the time. If a projector only has a 2 25/32” holder, there's no option at all.

On a Simplex (PR1060) lens turret, the lens holder can be moved only slightly, but no where enough for the screen in example 1. The only turret I’ve worked with that might do is a Cinemeccanica 3-lens model. They make several different models, and I not sure exactly which one we have. It came on some V9’s we bought in 1975. Each lens barrel has two rods with offset (cam-like) ends. One will move the lens up/down, the other left/right.

In example 1, a heat baffle behind the V8’s trap required filing to allow the light to clear. The trap did not require filing, as the opening was quite tall. (I suspect that Cinemeccanica made the trap opening tall for Cinerama; they would then only have to inventory only one part for both projectors.) I’ve seen a Century JJ-2 trap filed out on the top inside; being all brass, that was quite a job.

All of this does not address Gordon’s point about light loss. Even if both flat and scope images are centered on screen, one of the formats will not be centered on the lamp’s optical center. Most techs (at installations that have adjustable top masking) will tilt the projector normally for flat. They align the lamphouse, flatten the light, and file aperture plates normally. Then, they move the framing knob to position the scope image and file aperture plates. Generally, this means the bottom of the scope screen will be darker than the top, because the scope image is outside the lamphouse’s optical center light “spot”.

I read in a SMPTE article (“Screen Illumination of 35mm Film Projection” Dec. 1983) a suggestion to change the set up procedure. Instead of setting the tilt of the projector for flat, tilt it for scope first. Align the lamphouse, flatten the light, and file aperture for scope. Then, move the framing knob to center the flat image on screen (and file it’s plate.) The result is the flat image will still be within the lamp’s light spot.

Gordon’s also right about having bottom masking come up to keep the image centered, but the motors and rigging for that are expensive. If the theater had that kind of money, they wouldn't be doing top masking in the first place!

Sorry for giving everyone my long-winded opinion, but I really do feel that adjustable top masking is no where near the worst thing that a theater can do. It can be made acceptable if a small amount of work is done.


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