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Topic: "amelie" subtitles out of focus?

System Notices
Forum Watchdog / Soup Nazi

Posts: 215

Registered: Apr 2004

posted 11-15-2004 10:35 AM

It has been 1050 days since the last post.

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Peter Mork
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 181
From: Newton, MA, USA
Registered: Jun 2002

posted 11-15-2004 10:35 AM

Ran the follow-up to Amelie by Jean-Pierre Jeunet(A Very Long Engagement) yesterday. The laser subs were quite soft and distracting. I think there should be a ban on laser titles for scope prints (scope is less forgiving generally of teeny variations in the focus plane).

I'm gonna write Warner and put in my opinion. (I can't remember if US prints of Amelie had printed or etched titles.)

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 11-15-2004 10:44 AM

Remember, for laser or chemical etched subtitles, the "image" of the subtitle is the base of the film, not within the emulsion carrying the picture. So the plane of focus could be up to about 15 micrometers different. Less of a problem with longer focal length lenses, or if you have the light, using an aperture stop within the lens for subtitled pictures.

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Dominic Case
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 131
From: Sydney NSW Australia
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 11-15-2004 08:51 PM

quote: was the last to post
Would it be so technologically difficult to develop a low cost projection system to display subtitles immediately below the picture frame?

Dolby and DTS both already have such a system. Suppose they persuaded distributors not to order subtitled prints, but to ship a disk with the subtitles. (So in other words you couldn't screen foreign language films unless you bought the extra kit.) It would probably save the distributors a few dollars. So who is going to pay for the kit to attach to each projector? I smell the cyan tracks debate all over again! Let's not go there.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 12-08-2004 10:23 AM

I've always wondered if the depth of focus issues regarding laser subtitles are affected not only by lens focal length but the throw as well. At my screening room I'm at 45mm for 1.85 and 70mm for Scope. But the throw is only 30'. I wonder if a theatre that is proportionally the same but with a longer throw and of course larger screen using the same lenses would have the same issues.

BTW, I have Very Long Engagement here again and this time the print has photographic subtitles. What a difference.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 12-08-2004 11:13 AM

You can always do the math: [Wink]

http://www.vanwalree.com/optics/dofderivation.html

quote:
Depth of focus
Fig. 3 shows the same scenario as the top sketch in Fig. 2, but with the light cone extended beyond the film. The depth of focus U is defined as the region in front of and behind the focal plane where the diameter of the light cone is smaller than the permissible circle of confusion C. For k=C, the depth of focus stretches over the orange colored area around the film plane.

http://www.trenholm.org/hmmerk/TIAOOFe.pdf

quote:
The INs and OUTs
of FOCUS
An Alternative Way to Estimate
Depth-of-Field and
Sharpness
in the Photographic Image
by
Harold M. Merklinger

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Peter Mork
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 181
From: Newton, MA, USA
Registered: Jun 2002

posted 12-08-2004 12:43 PM

quote: Steve Kraus
BTW, I have Very Long Engagement here again and this time the print has photographic subtitles. What a difference.

See? They listened to moi. Who's your daddy?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 12-08-2004 01:42 PM

Larger print runs are more likely to use photographic subtitles. Laser subtitles are usually more cost effective for smaller numbers of prints.

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Peter Mork
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 181
From: Newton, MA, USA
Registered: Jun 2002

posted 12-08-2004 09:00 PM

Killjoy!

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 12-09-2004 02:19 AM

I watched that movie recently in Hollywood at the Leammle Royal Theatre, and it had photogrpahic subtitles.
There was another interesting problem though, not caused by the subtitles (it was also obvious during the regular titles at the beginning and end, but not really in other elements of the picture - but it may have contributed to a certain diffuseness of the image): I would describe it as "horizontal streaking" for lack of a better term. You could see a blue "aura" on the left edge of the subtitles and titles. It seemed to be a little stronger towards the left side of the image. I vaguely remember we discussed a problem like this not too long ago, but I couldn't find the thread.
Is this caused by problems during printing or by misaligned lens elements?

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 12-09-2004 04:18 AM

quote: Dominic Case
Dolby and DTS both already have such a system. Suppose they persuaded distributors not to order subtitled prints, but to ship a disk with the subtitles. (So in other words you couldn't screen foreign language films unless you bought the extra kit.) It would probably save the distributors a few dollars. So who is going to pay for the kit to attach to each projector? I smell the cyan tracks debate all over again! Let's not go there.

Dolby Screentalk has caught on in quite a big way here (the DTS system to a lesser extent), though AFAIK only for providing hard-of-hearing subtitles and synchronising audio commentaries for the blind and partially sighted. There is even a pressure group which campaigns for more of these screenings and helps venues raise funds to install the kit.

I'm not aware of either system ever having been used to provide the subtitles for unsubtitled foreign-language prints. Personally I can see a lot of potential advantages in going down that route. For a typical arthouse title the biggest cost is getting the translation done (I have a friend who does English to French subtitling: it's a very specialised job which needs years of training and supervision before you're let loose on a film by yourself, and the people who do it earn pretty good salaries), but putting subtitles on the prints is still not cheap.

For 2-10 print titles which would typically be lasered you could import more prints at a far lower cost. Given that these prints tend to do the rounds of arts centres, part time venues, film societies and other places where the bookings are short and the standard of film handling often isn't that good, more prints would mean more flexible booking opportunities and venues being less likely to get a knackered one. Furthermore electronic subtitling would also enable you to run the odd show without subtitles - say, an early evening slot one day a week - for those who can speak the language and don't want graffiti all over the screen.

Set against which is the cost of the kit and whatever Dolby or DTS charge to encode distribute the subtitle data for use on their system. If they can significantly undercut the cost of lasering a few prints to do this, then no problem. And once a venue has the kit it can be used for other things, e.g. projecting Powerpoint presentations at the odd lecture, or video footage every now and again.

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Thomas King
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 119
From: Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Registered: Oct 2004

posted 12-09-2004 06:52 AM

We're showing it on Sunday and y'all are making me distinctly apprenehsive.

Still, could be worse. Could be dubbed [Smile]

IMDB says it was digitally colour corrected at 2K, whatever that means.

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Phil Blake
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 558
From: esperance western australia
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 12-10-2004 10:35 AM

Well this thread has answered a few of my queries on sub titles. 2 of our screens are large screen , short throw and I have had many issues with focusing subtiles and picture , having to keep picture in focus and title slightly out. It looks much like the short throw screens have this problems more so. In regards To John Pytlak flicker issues , the older machines I worked with all had twin two bladed shutters which counter rotated , most new machines just have a single two blade shutter , are we loosing sharpness and stability with this ?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 12-11-2004 10:37 AM

The counter-rotating shutters were primarily used to slightly increase efficiency in using the light, giving a slightly faster "scissoring" action. Focus flutter issues are best addressed by use of efficient heat filters, and being sure lamp alignment and uniformity are optimized. Curved gate designs usually help, and gate tension is an adjustable parameter. Some tried using air pressure to stabilize the film (e.g., Century "Cine-Focus").

The lens design is part of the equation, in terms of what shape the film plane is assumed to be by the lens designer. Likewise, if you have enough light, an aperture stop or "studio" lens will give greater depth of focus.

Heat Damage Part 1

Heat Damage Part 2

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 12-11-2004 05:13 PM

What can cause the "horizontal streaking" (for want of a better term) that I described a few posts ago?

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