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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Unfortunate evidence of 'Film Done Wrong' (Page 3)

 
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Author Topic: Unfortunate evidence of 'Film Done Wrong'
Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 01-08-2002 06:53 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Bob, do yourself a favor and do not read the thread "CAP code secrets revealed". You'll go nuts watching movies once you know!

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 01-09-2002 12:46 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think I used to notice the changeover dots before I started working projection, but I never knew what they were. They used to bother me. I didn't know they had a purpose, and I couldn't understand why they were there. Thy really used to annoy me, I guess because they were useless. Now that I know what they are and that they serve a funtional purpose, they don't bother me as much.

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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-11-2002 02:04 AM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What is the functional service that cues perform in a platter setup?

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Steven Gorsky
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 146
From: Frederick, MD, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 01-11-2002 02:16 AM      Profile for Steven Gorsky   Author's Homepage   Email Steven Gorsky   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I can think of at least one use for the change-over cues. When screening a print if there is a problem (soundtrack, color/colour, etc.) you can keep track of what reel it was (i.e. reel 3), instead of guessing (I think that the problem with digital dropping-out was halfway through the feature).

Steven Gorsky


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John Hazelton
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Oakland, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 01-11-2002 04:36 PM      Profile for John Hazelton   Author's Homepage   Email John Hazelton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John Wilson asked:

"What is the functional service that cues perform in a platter setup?"

Another thing they do is help to confirm the proper break-down points. If you're not sure if a particular splice is actually the join between reels, you can look back a foot or so and see if there's a cue mark.

It also provides info about how many frames have been lost to artless build-ups and break-downs.

Of course, if prints were shipped on one reel, this wouldn't matter, but I've found the cue marks to be very helpful when dealing with botched up prints that have been to festivals and such.

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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-12-2002 11:18 PM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There's GOT to be a better way to mark the end of a reel for those purposes than slapping a bloody great black mark on the release print image area.

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Jeffry L. Johnson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 809
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 01-13-2002 12:13 PM      Profile for Jeffry L. Johnson   Author's Homepage   Email Jeffry L. Johnson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I really don't understand the objection to the cue mark. It appears for a total of eight frames, two sets of 4 consecutive frames, per reel. Most patrons never notice it.

If I calculated correctly, a SMPTE standard sized cue mark on a 1.85:1 35mm frame covers almost 1.9% of the projectable image area. I think masking typically covers more projectable image area than that.

The cue marks and their placement have been standardized for over sixty years. Granted there are many platter systems in use today but there are still plenty of changeover houses, review rooms, screening rooms, museums, and so on that use 2000' magazines and changeover every reel.

I certainly prefer a neatly printed cue mark over a scribed cue mark. I've seen plenty of "added" cue marks over the years, small circles in the upper right corner, small "X"'s in the upper right corner, small punched holes in the upper right corner, large "X"'s that cover entire frames, large punched holes in the center of the frame, and so on.

As others have mentioned in other topics in this forum, the printed cue marks are a handy tool to identify the correct reel change splice when one is restoring a print to its original reel configuration after someone has used the "fill the reel and cut" method of ship out.

Counting the frames between the last cue mark and the last frame of picture indicate the number of frames lost to the "choppers" since "peelers" don't lose frames.

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Christopher Seo
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 530
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-14-2002 02:02 PM      Profile for Christopher Seo   Email Christopher Seo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I always notice cue marks except when I'm trying to do a changeover....

Going back to the original topic, in the case of LOTR image quality I'd be more inclined to blame the production itself than the theatre. I've seen the movie or parts of it in several different theatres, including the Seattle Cinerama with its Kinoton 35/70 and actual projectionist, and thought that the imagery, live or CG, was disappointingly soft (including the end title crawl). This was a Super 35 production, was it not? Whether it's the Super 35 origination itself, or the labwork, or whatever, I feel that the quality of the final print really does suffer with this method. I thought "Harry Potter" was a soft print as well, although it seemed the sharpness varied (and that was Super 35 too, I believe).

In any case, compared to the best 35 I've seen, LOTR's sharpness was not very good. In fact the Star Wars trailer that preceded it seemed on par resolution-wise. While it's still more resolution than the DVD, I think some would rather see a TV-sized image that's apparently sharp (ie for its size) than a 70-foot image that's soft.

I also saw "Monsters Inc." in DLP at the El Capitan. It was certainly good but any time your attention is drawn to a small object, for example something in the distance, the pixels and low resolution are immediately apparent. Sure it was rock-steady, but so were the trailers transferred over from film. Unless they did some sort of digital image registration, we can assume that the film they scanned was rock steady also.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 01-16-2002 08:56 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Christopher: AFAIK, LOTR was digitally scanned at only 2K resolution, which may account for its' "softer" look:
http://www.cinematographer.com/article/mainv/0,7220,32211|5,00.html

"All three films were shot in the Super 35 format, and Lesnie requested that the ground glasses for each camera have only 2.35:1 aspect ratio frame markings and center dots."

"Lesnie employed Kodak stocks EXR 50D 5245 and 200T 5293, Vision 500T 5279 and, for visual-effects work, SO214. He rated the 79 two-thirds overexposed at 320 ASA, and the 93 one-third overexposed at 160 ASA. Lesnie eschewed timed workprints in favor of one-light workprint dailies to avoid any ambiguity about what was going on with the various units' camera negatives, and the printer lights stayed in the low to mid-30s for the entire production. He chose the EXR stocks because he sought a soft image with decreased contrast. "The light in New Zealand can be quite hard and contrasty. There's very little pollution and the light has a strong amount of UV in it. However, we were looking for a more 'European' sensibility."

"The release prints are on standard Fuji print stock, because Lesnie believes that "the combination of Kodak negative and Fuji print stock has a slightly softer quality. To achieve the desired effect, we did tests taking the prints right through the process with The Film Unit and Deluxe in Los Angeles."

Interestingly, for this summer's "Stuart Little 2", cinematographer Steven Poster ASC insisted on scanning at 4K resolution, and recording back to film at 4K resolution.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Christopher Seo
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 530
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-17-2002 01:05 PM      Profile for Christopher Seo   Email Christopher Seo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The release prints are on standard Fuji print stock, because Lesnie believes that "the combination of Kodak negative and Fuji print stock has a slightly softer quality."

I assume by "softer" he means softer contrast? It would be somewhat disturbing if a cinematographer intentionally meant to soften the focus.

Anyway, it's sad that scanning resolution is something filmmakers feel they can sacrifice when creating "epics" on a budget. It's also quite ironic that these newsgroupies are championing "digital" when it's precisely a digital process that caused the loss of resolution in the first place.

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