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Author Topic: Tri-Circle Autoscope Drive-In Theater
Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 04-03-2002 08:59 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm still puzzled by the optics. If that was a regular lens in the projector whose image is reflected upwards to the plate with the many small lenses wouldn't each small lens be "seeing" just a portion of the picture? Obviously there must be more to it.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-03-2002 09:44 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My guess would be that each small lens was looking at an aerial image formed by the main lens, in an aerial image beamsplitter arrangement:
http://www.usaarl.army.mil/hmdbook/cp_003.htm

AERIAL IMAGE OR VIRTUAL IMAGE: An image focused by a projection lens near a field or relay lens. A camera lens is then used to form a real image on the film from the aerial image. A cell or another material can be placed at the aerial-image location to combine it with the aerial image on film.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 04-03-2002 10:16 AM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve and John, I don't understand why you think there was a primary lens?

The cone of light going through film from the reflector not only forms a cone of light within the lamphouse and throat, it forms another cone of illumination on the opposite side of the film plane.
Note the position of the lenses in the photographs. They all fall within this cone.

It doesn't matter whether a lens is placed 3" from the film plane or 3', provided the focal length is correct, the lens will form an image that will be focused at a given distance. If that lens is within the cone of illumination it will probably form a bright enough image to comfortably view. There is no reason why more than one lens can't be placed to form images. In a theatre, we are used to one lens, partly because of the setup, and partly because multiple large lenses close to the film plane would be at an unacceptable angle to the film.

I'm fairly sure that each of the small long focal length lenses "sees" the small frame illuminated within the gate without the use of additional optics. Remember we're talking about making small images on small screens.

My original LOL! comment was because of the simplicity of the whole setup.


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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 04-03-2002 09:27 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jerry, you may be on to something. The problem I have with the aerial image is that I don't think the little lenses would pick up the entire image, only a portion. An aerial image is in focus at a point in air. But beyond that point the light rays are just diverging.

I recall playing with the concept of aerial images with a 16mm portable machine. I focused the regular lens so closely (lens forward almost out of its mount) that the image was only a bit larger than the film frame. Move the temporary focusing object out of the way and hand holding another lens in front (just as far from the aerial focal plane--an inch or two--as the 2nd lens would normally be from a film plane to focus on the wall a few feet away). This would project a normal image (perhaps upside down; I've forgotten). As I recall, the key to this totally pointless exercise was that the aerial image was small enough to get picked up by the 2nd lens (which was just another 16mm projector lens) without vignetting. If I refocused the 1st lens so the in-focus aerial image was larger, I could still pick it up with the 2nd lens but only a portion of it, not the whole picture.

How that applies here is that if there is an aerial image at some small distance below the cluster of small lenses, the small lenses would only pick up tiny segments of the picture. Looked at another way, if I focus a projector to produce picture about a foot or two across and then take the screen away, at any point at the screen level an observer can only see the light directed at that point, not the entire image. There will be a cone of light converging to that spot from across the width of the lens but originating from tranmission through a single point on the film.

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 01-03-2004 07:28 PM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just to update this thread, since I missed it originally.

Jerry and Steve are right. There is/was no "primary" lens in an Autoscope theatre. The lens holder in the projector is empty, and the little lenses (they looked exactly like plastic "Give-A-Show" toy projector lenses to me) were located about 18 inches in front of the projector head. In the installation I saw at Channelview, TX, the lens bank was between the projector and the 45 deg. mirror -- just the opposite of the one in this picture -- although that wouldn't really matter, save for it being easier to adjust focus.

It was quite an amazing sight to see.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 01-03-2004 09:24 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
I still soooooooooooooooooo want to visit one of these monstrocities! I'm sure I already know the answer, but is there an Autoscope drive-in anywhere that is still running, or at least not demolished yet?

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Andrew McCrea
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 645
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 01-03-2004 10:28 PM      Profile for Andrew McCrea   Author's Homepage   Email Andrew McCrea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I fell another Film-Tech adventure coming on...

I, too, agree with Brad. This "drive-in" fasinates me. I kind of got the general idea though, that a lot of people thought this theatre wasn't that great.

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Erick Akers
Arse Kicker

Posts: 201
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: May 2001


 - posted 01-03-2004 10:58 PM      Profile for Erick Akers   Email Erick Akers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Were these manufactured by the same AutoScope Corporation that manufactures commercial telescope equipment?

I was lucky enough to see that one in operation, but I was only five years old at the time. What I remember most is that the screen wasn't that bright.

I can't imagine that someone out there didn't buy the projection system and have it sitting in a barn somewhere.

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 01-04-2004 12:12 AM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad, that one down in Houston ran until about 1987, but I've heard it's just an empty field now. I saw it in '85, and it was about the coolest thing I'd ever seen. An outfit in MO "licensed" them. The TRAD Co., I believe it was called (Theatre Research and Development).

The projection system was just a standard 35mm projector with a large reel transport... nothing fancy, but the trick part was the mirror arrangement it projected into, up in that overhead dome. Wouldn't be too hard to make one, just time consuming getting it all adjusted. Needed a de-humidifier up there, too, to prevent fogging.

Most of the late Autoscope theatres were porn, because they couldn't show anamorphic pictures. They figured out a way to project scope in their last couple of years, but it was too late in the game.

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John McConnel
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 118
From: Okmulgee, OK USA
Registered: Nov 2003


 - posted 01-04-2004 02:30 PM      Profile for John McConnel   Author's Homepage   Email John McConnel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There was an Autoscope drive-in in operation in Joplin, MO, in the mid 1970s. At that time, it was showing XXX. Picture quality was fair. It used a film transport in a blue cabinet that I don't remember the brand of. The projector and sound head were mounted at the front of the cabinet. It used a relatively small xenon lamphouse.

I don't know if any of its remains still exist.

P. S. UNI-CINEMA was the brand of the transport, I believe.

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Peter Schoell
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Paynesville, MN, USA
Registered: Jul 2001


 - posted 01-04-2004 03:03 PM      Profile for Peter Schoell   Email Peter Schoell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The mirror in front of the projector just reflects what it "sees" at the film plane, correcting the image. The small white lenses reverse the image, and the small mirrors correct the image. If this is true then a "corrected" image is sent to the small screens.
Being rear projected wouldn't the image be reverse?

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 01-04-2004 05:22 PM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Peter, you're missing a mirror. There are a couple of bounces in the dome.

John, that Joplin site was the prototype. The installation I saw used a unit called "The Box", made by American Film Transport in Jacksonville, Florida. It was a hideous thing, and the projector sit way up on top, about 1.5 x the height of a normal optical centerline (but not to satisfy any special Autoscope requirement, I should add).

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System Notices
Forum Watchdog / Soup Nazi

Posts: 215

Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 07-15-2005 12:57 PM      Profile for System Notices         Edit/Delete Post 

It has been 557 days since the last post.


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Andrew McCrea
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 645
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 07-15-2005 12:57 PM      Profile for Andrew McCrea   Author's Homepage   Email Andrew McCrea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does anyone think that this could work now? Maybe as a very exclusive experience, that specializes as a restaurant?

The trend today is always "Bigger is Better", so claiming the new WHATEVER DRIVE-IN with 120 screens is NOW OPEN might be a great marketing campaign. You could even do two rings and add 1/3 more screens on the total (for a grand total of 280 screens).

What about using a 6kw bulb to brighten it up a bit, now that its common for that size of bulb to be used with 35mm?

Still, I'm sure there's no room whatsoever in the current market for this, but this sure is fascinating.

Ironic that it was called the AutoScope when scope films couldn't be run there. What was the reason that it couldn't show scope flicks, and what did they do to combat that issue?

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Mark Lensenmayer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1605
From: Upper Arlington, OH
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 07-15-2005 05:01 PM      Profile for Mark Lensenmayer   Email Mark Lensenmayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think that if anyone would try this now (and I have major doubts that anyone would), they would use video.

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