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Topic: I GOT A FILM-TECH PRINT!!!!

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 02-24-2002 06:16 PM

It does work with an overlap, but it is by no means as nasty as typical "lab splices" since they are done post-processing. The overlap is actually very little, like is obtained from making the splicer modification in the "tips" section. Because of this, you can not make an ultrasonic splice, cut it apart, and then re-ultrasonic splice it back together. The only option is to tape splice the cut back together for future splicing, which results in zero frame loss, or to cut over one frame to make another ultrasonic splice, but again, just look at how exceedingly rare ultrasonic splicers are in projection rooms and you will see why it is a non-issue.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-24-2002 06:19 PM

Well I have always had a problem with the "overlap method" in the tips section since there are many machines around the world that don't like those types of splices

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 02-24-2002 06:21 PM

Please list these poorly designed projectors you speak of, Gordon.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-24-2002 06:44 PM

The first SImplex straight gate turreted machine (the one the turret swung open to turn) We had them at the fairview and the trap would not tolerate any overlap
The Prevost P55
The Wassman EuroKino35
The Shinko portable
and depending on the direction of the overlap the forks at the top of the DP75 really love overlaps
just to start

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 02-24-2002 06:56 PM

Sounds like a bunch of junk to me. The only one on that list I'm familiar with is that Simplex, and that definitely was a piece of crap projector!

Please do complete the list so I will know which projectors to stay away from. Remember, your saying that an overlap splice is a bad thing to these projectors is also saying that these machines cannot run a film that has a lab splice in them. That is just pathetic. Besides, if these machines cannot handle an overlap splice, they will obviously put a lot of stress on any butt splice join and consequently stretch the splice, leaving a gap and a large "POP" in the audio.

These machines were obviously poorly designed.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-24-2002 06:59 PM

They actually handle a sonic splice with a bit of noise but the thickness of tape and the difference in thickness tends to catch

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 02-24-2002 07:00 PM

Junk, I tell ya! Come on, don't dodge the question. Please complete that list. I know of some hungry dumpsters that these things deserve to go visit.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 02-24-2002 07:05 PM

If a projector cannot handle a tape splice with a teeny tiny overlap (it is really small, way less than half a perf by far) then they really shouldn't be in operation. I have seen lab splices on prints WAY thicker than a tape splice with the overlap. Have you seen some of these lab splices? They make a huge noise going through the machine, make the frame bounce to high heaven ho matter what machine it is running on, makes a huge loud pop right after dropping from digital and distorts onscreen colors for the next 30 seconds or so of the reel. Such a splice would surely jam up in one of your projectors. End of show!

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-24-2002 07:14 PM

Other machines that didn't like small overlaps
Victoria 12
Veronesse portable
Microcine xenon
A ultrasonic splice produces very little tickness change
A overlap splice increases the thickness by 2 film thickness which is what is the proper clearance between pads in a projector not 2 thicknesses + 2 layers of splicing tape

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 02-24-2002 07:52 PM

Lab splices (pre-processing) DO make that much of a thickness change.

That's not the way I set my pad roller clearance (and everyone else that I have personally worked with). The rule of thumb (at least in these parts) is the pad rollers should spin freely with 2 layers of film, but should have some drag with 3 layers. We can of course argue that point forever, but in the end your butt splices will slowly pull apart from daily use and there will be a tiny gap in there, causing the splice to lose it's strength and cause a pop in the sound. This is most noticeable with acetate, but is plenty obvious enough with polyester. Anyone who breaks a print down that makes un-modified butt splices can verify this. Just hold the splice up to the light, preferably at a dark reel change and you will "see the light" shining through. Also, a butt splice that has slightly worn will "hinge", that is if folded at the splice easily fold back on itself producing a sharp corner. Someone other than me please do this and verify it here so Gordon will stop his complaining.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 02-24-2002 07:59 PM

I have a solution!!!!!!!!!! Just draw a sound "bloop" on the tape where the soundtrack is. Also, always draw it in triangle form, since triangles are just so awesome. This ALWAYS works perfectly and it lasts forever. It makes butt-splices that have grown half an inch apart sound super seemless! Not only does it silence the gap in the soundtrack, but it actually recreates the original sound so you don't hear dead silence for a split second!!!!!!!!!!

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 02-24-2002 08:02 PM

Ugh! What a horrible solution there Joe. Gordon, please tell me you don't teach that outdated practice from decades ago. It is SOOOOOOO obvious when watching a print in analog when someone has built the print up like that. It's worse than a digital dropout.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-24-2002 08:08 PM

I bloop the splice and they are butt splices with no overlap and with clean film and good tape I havent seen much stretching especially with high torque takeups

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 02-24-2002 08:11 PM

Ok, it's official. Gordon, you can never work a booth that I run. I go to great pains to un-learn people from stuff like that.

So you don't see "much" stretching, even assuming you have clean film, a well made splice and good tape eh? So you're admitting it STILL happens even when everything else is perfect. Does anyone else see a problem with this?

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-24-2002 08:19 PM

If on the rare occasion I find one stretching then I remake it.
Simple solution but it is very rare i ever find one stretching

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