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Topic: Towers and long films

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 04-07-2002 05:43 PM

Fortunately, Kinoton projectors and even the tower use motor controllers to control ramp up speed so if I wanted say even a 10-second ramp up (rather than the factory 5-seconds) is no problem.

Steve

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Pete Naples
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1565
From: Dunfermline, Scotland
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 04-07-2002 07:20 PM

I saw LOTR running at one of my sites on a single reel. I don't know the exact size of the hub

sorry. Almost all of the spools in use here are 38" OD.
The floating hub or eazi start type reels are great, but I've only ever seen them with 10" or larger hubs, which limits their usefullness. The cheeks of the Cinemec ones bend too easily for my liking, the Goldberg is a little better in that respect, and has a smaller hub, BUT doesn't seem to be capable of being shipped to the UK without being bent in the process. The Kinoton wire spools are very good, there is also Rigby (Premier) available here which are all but indestructable. Those come in two hub sizes (it was the smaller of the two that allowed LOTR in one shot).

Paul, I've used and serviced towers for ten years now, and I've never seen film damage caused by the weight of the film. I had one site (now thankfully closed!) that amongst other bad habits, would take the spools off the tower and place them flat overnight. All this served to do was give the operators back ache and bend the checks of the spools where they grabbed them.

Steve K. The manual for the Westrex 5035 Film Carrier Assembly (Tower to U & me!) states that a full spool should be rewound in no less than 20 minutes. As most cinemas using towers are usually not fim factory type places, that works well as one audience has get out, the auditoreum cleaned, and the next audience got in.

Steve G. As you can control both the Projector ramp up and the tower then I don't see why you couldn't use smaller hubs than Kinoton spec. It's always the smaller hubs not being able to get up to speed fast enough that caused start up problems, so as you can slow the projector ramp up, and probably increase the tower ramp up, you shouldn't have any trouble. That said I've zero experience of the Kinoton tower, but certainly with a Westrex one could always increase take up tension for starting. I set most Westars up to ramp up in 6 seconds, this seems to work really well with the 5035 tower, and generally the operator can find a tension setting that will give a smooth start every time.

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-07-2002 07:32 PM

Don't those towers have power feeds as well as take up?

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Tom Fermanian
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 101
From: Sainte Adele, Quebec, Canada
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 04-07-2002 07:41 PM

Hi,
Just for your info, The Xetron Walts running here use 42inch reels with a 14 inch hub, Old Instructions for this unit claimed that in tests done ;film is less subject to damage on a reel with larger hub film rewinding slower on bigger hubs,hence the 14 inch hub is required & accepted for these units. In the past, Have used up to 52 inch reels with eprad double muts and found out that we had some film damage using the smaller hubs even the easy start floating hubs available back then,we remedied by putting "dummy" film too augment hub size thus curtailing damage on the begining of prints (20 years ago). Tom

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Tom Fermanian
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 101
From: Sainte Adele, Quebec, Canada
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 04-07-2002 07:46 PM

Greg,
Cinemeccanica towers 2b4 &4b4s had powered clutch take-ups but no power feed-out, Eprad Doudle-Muts had direct motor take-up & feed out, Xetron Walts have Motor driven take-up and feed out similar to platter motors with rubber pucks (wheels). Tom

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Pete Naples
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1565
From: Dunfermline, Scotland
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 04-08-2002 04:30 AM

The Westrex tower has powered pay off. Each spool shaft is driven with a dedicated motor and you can adjust the tension on pay off and take up independantly 'on the fly'. The rewind control is proportional between top and bottom shafts.

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Bernard Tonks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 619
From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 04-08-2002 08:12 AM

I have made a correction to my post of yesterday; I somehow omitted ‘projector’ in the first paragraph.
………………………………………………………………….

As I had 8 very good Premier 36” spools with 6” hubs, the Cinemec floating 12” hub one was never used.

Rewinding on the Westrex tower was always done using the pay-off & take-off controls only, in preference for better tension taking 15-20 minutes.

Personally I would like to see a double sided tower system made without having to use spools completely. Say, solid 40” fixed diameter plates with a horizontal bar to keep, therefore only the film would move on 6” cores. I did several experiments a year or so ago, with a 6K plate, which worked perfectly! Pity I didn’t think of the idea many years ago, I would have done this myself and have the only tower (that I know of) with no spools.

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Pete Naples
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1565
From: Dunfermline, Scotland
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 04-08-2002 09:49 AM

Rewinding on the tensions? I've come across that in one location on the coast, something about the air makes the film always rewind soft. Other than something like humidity causing poor rewind, having to use the RUN to rewind usually means that the large wirewound variable resistor in the rewind circuit needs attention, or has broken. I've also seen the contacts in the rotary side selector switch do odd things, which can cause that, amongst other wierd faults. Replacing those is a real chore. Youcan't get the original switch ( I believe Westrex made these in house ) so we use a readily available industrial control switch. Of course the pin out doesn't match, and with hell knows how many wires on that switch, working out what goes where is great fun. After the first time I did it ( a whole mornings work!) I literally wrote the book on replacing the selector switch on the 5035. Thankfully those towers are almost indestructible, so this is a rare task to perform.

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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 04-08-2002 10:07 AM

Am I the only one who has never seen a film tower?
I used to think film-techers meant five-platter stacks,
but apparently towers have vertical reels.
Perhaps they were not used in the NYC area, or are of
very recent invention.

Can someone provide a link that explains how they work,
and what advantages (if any) they have? Or a photo?

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Tom Fermanian
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 101
From: Sainte Adele, Quebec, Canada
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 04-08-2002 10:19 AM

Gerald,
Look in the manuals of film tech, Cinemec. tower is there, also look for eprad sword, and there is a picture of Xetron Walts in one of the stored topics in forum film handlers. Tom

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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 04-08-2002 10:27 AM

Thanks, Tom--
Manuals to the rescue!
GeraRd

.............................................
"Si tienes prisa, paseme por encima."

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Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 04-08-2002 12:12 PM

Gerard: Check out the 'Phoenix Theatre' in the Pic Warehouse, they have a Cinemeccanica tower in the booth there.

-Aaron

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Bernard Tonks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 619
From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 04-08-2002 01:15 PM

Gerard:

If you search Alan Plester in Film Handler's Forum and click on Platter systems, you will find two pictures of the Westrex double sided tower.

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-08-2002 02:11 PM

For my interpretation of a film tower see http://users.silverlink.net/~mueller/film6.htm
since the picture was taken I've added power feed to the system. I used to rely on the projector to pull the film off but after a couple of disasters I added a feed motor and "dancer" arm

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 04-08-2002 07:12 PM

Wow!
You guys are as good as a seminar or Towers 101!
I'd guess the tower concept antedated the widespread use of
platters? I seem to remember the Eprad/Sword threat to the
livelihood of union projectionists when the Jerry Lewis' Mom
and Pop "Movies on every crossroads" proposal was floated.
I guess the chains steamrollered that idea by building multi-
plexes, but I thought the machines were obsolete. At least
they were kept out of the NY metro region by the unions, but the
platters damn near did us in.
Seems to me the big advantage is the saving of space, enabling
rotund types to tinker in tight booths; also the saving of muscle
power over changeover systems, appreciated by near-retirement Moms
and Pops. But from Greg's example, the idea seems ideal for a
personal screening room at home! Which has me studying the links
you posted.... Many thanks!
Gerard (IATSE pension after 26 years.)

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