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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » The quality of grainy film lately. (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: The quality of grainy film lately.
Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

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From: Lawton, OK, USA
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 - posted 05-05-2002 01:13 AM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I disagree with Mark's comments on how "Super35 when done right looks a lot better than anamorphic ever could."

The only way how I see Super35 being done right is to either show it in 1.85:1 or blow it up to 70mm if the optical enlargement process has to be used. In going through the extra optical printing steps to get to 'scope 35mm a generation in image quality is lost.

Anamorphic 'scope is superior to Super35 for being able to use the full 4-perf frame and have all that extra emulsion used to capture image detail. Super35 imagery is getting blown up across both horizontal and vertical axis, just like a non-anamorphic widescreen DVD. Ugh!

The one single advantage that Super35 has is depth of field over use of spherical lenses. But that is more a matter of convenience (and price) than over quality. If depth of field is what the DP and director wants, they can get razor sharp focus across the entire frame if they choose their lenses and T-stop setting correctly. I have seen plenty of anamorphic movies where this has been done.

Shooting anamorphic 35mm forces the film crew to actually compose for the format rather than doing the proverbial "having their cake and eating it too" with Super35. Most Super35 films have a lifeless quality when it comes to the composition. The top and bottom of the frame has simply been lopped off and the composition really just looks like it. Super35 compositions (and quality) often look no better at all than the trailers for 1.85:1 films that have been blown up to 'scope.

When done right, anamorphic 35mm looks really great. Care must be taken with actor placement, set decoration, lighting and everything else to correctly accomodate the format. If all that extra work is not done, anamorphic can look disasterous. You'll get into the low depth of field headaches and such. But even with that, the film stocks are so fast that there is more flexibility with the kind of lenses and exposure settings that can be used. This is so much so that I am angry that film productions are not trying to give 70mm any kind of a legitimate chance. With the kind of cameras, lenses and film stocks that are available now, it would be so much easier to shoot a movie in 70mm than it would have been 20 years ago.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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 - posted 05-05-2002 09:24 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bobby,
We'll always disagree on this I suppose. I can only relate back to all the dailies that I've run that were shot in Super 35 that looked unbelievable. I also feel that the gain in depth of field is definately worth using the format. Anamorphic camera lenses have from no depth of field at all to several feet at best. In fact it is the counter rotating diopters that are built into many anamorphic lenses that cause this shallow depth of field problem. Depth of field is sacrificed in many of these lenses to keep compression of the lens constant. I have an old set of B&L Cinemascope camera lenses that are far more capable of good depth of field, but suffer from non-linear compression during racking focus. This is only really visible on a close up shot of a person, or something with a circle being drawn. This is what is known as anamorphic mumps. Depth of field with Spherical lenses on the other hand can be pretty much unlimited, and it is this extra depth that creates the better illusion of reality. Our eyes do not "rack focus" like an anamorphic lens has to...our eyesight more closely resembles that of spherical lenses. Cameron's films are great examples of Super 35 done right but there have been many others along with his. Actually it would be advantagous to project all Super 35 films the way they are shot as this would result in best on-screen sharpness and eliminate the troublesome lab step in going to 4 perf anamorphic for general release. However when this step is carefully controled you'd have a hard time telling if a film had ever gone through this stage. The only added gain here is the on screen gain of light.
As far as films shot in Super 35 being poorly composed that is purely a function of the Director, and the Director of Photography. It is these two people more than any others on a film that create the look they deem good for the story. What I said about the ASC in my last post in this thread seems to apply to this statement. They have way too many members that just because they have shot one big film now have the title of ASC after their name. In the old days DP's had to photograph many large films to be voted into ASC, but again, politics seems to now drive their organization more than it ever has for what ever reason. I can remember the old roster of names in the ASC magazine there in the late 70's and early 80's that was simply amazing to read. These DP's also photographed many B films and some are great visual works of art thanks to them. Their great knowledge and experience saved many a B film back in the 50's. There are way too many DP's that turn out only so-so work these days. They sometimes seem to blot out the really good ones that are also ASC members. Weather a film actually looks good or not has nothing at all with which film format is used to shoot with. It appears that there are more inexperienced DP's turning out more junk these days, and perhaps this is due in part to the low quality B grade films that the studios keep wanting to churn out.
Today, any film format, including anamorphic, Super 35, and 1.85 can look bad, and many times has looked downright awful. Even 65mm cinematography can look poor. Far And Away comes right to mindon this one. What a waste of the 65mm format that film was, and it most likely riuned almost any chance 65mm had gained of making more headway back into everyday production...Far And Away would have looked about the same if it were shot in Super 16!
Mark


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Gordon McLeod
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 - posted 05-05-2002 09:46 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I tend to agree with bobby super 35 is inferior to 4 perf and the dailies I have screened tend to confirm that opinion
as for anamorphics haveing poor depth of field I have seen many films that have terrific depth of field that were shot anamorphic

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

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 - posted 05-05-2002 07:41 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To add to Gordon's comments, when anamorphic 35mm is shot at a high T-stop, the whole 4-perf negative is getting put into sharp focus. That is actually going to deliver a better quality of sharp detail than what is perceived with Super35.

The claims about Super35's superiority in terms of depth of field are a bit dubious. Sure, I could improve the depth of field of anamorphic photography by 200% if I loppped away half of the frame and used only 2 perfs of it for composition.

Depth of field and capability of detail should be seen as two different things. 5-perf 70mm has a very very low level of depth of field when compared to 4-perf 35mm. But if you can get the lighting and exposure settings just right, 70mm just absolutely blows away 35mm in terms of extreme high resolution razor sharp detail. Seeing a 70mm film like "Lawrence of Arabia" versus a 'scope 35mm print is like the difference between having 20/20 vision and needing glasses to correct blurry eyesight.

I see some of the same kinds of things going between Super35 and anamorphic 35mm. Sure, in some tight close up shot the background is going to be very blurry and vertically distorted using anamorphic. Rack focus moves on such shots are going to be awkward. But Super35 has its own tradeoffs on image quality. You often get an image with more noticeable grain and a lot less in terms of rich color. I think about it in terms of blowing up a colored balloon. When it is deflated, the color is very solid. When overinflated, that balloon's color gets very weak. I feel Super35 just stretches the emulsion out past what it is worth. It always falls short of 35mm anamorphic quality, especially when anamorphic is using the same high grain/high speed films.

I would only make a movie in Super35 for two reasons. One, I want a movie that can transfer to home video 1.33:1 TV release with minimal panning and scanning. That is the primary purpose above all others for Super35. It is "home video safe" widescreen. The second reason is that some filmmakers hate the anamorphic look, even though the anamorphic look is very fashionable these days judging by all the music videos out there being shot in 'scope.

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David Stambaugh
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 - posted 05-05-2002 08:02 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not qualified to comment on some of the technical details you guys are debating (duh). But in regard to everyone's comments about anamorphic mumps and related stuff like depth of field, I find that sometimes those small visual "flaws" are a good thing because they remind me I'm watching film and they seem like a normal part of professional cinematography, part of the "art" of making a movie. I mean I don't think these are necessarily flaws unless an unskilled DP is drawing attention to them. Does that make any sense? Whether these things come across on the screen as flaws or as part of the art of film making is up to the skill of the film makers. "Royal Tenenbaums" was anamorphic and it looked so damn good on the screen, I can't imagine it being done with spherical lenses and being the same movie. I dunno. I'm not arguing for or against anamorphic or spherical, just saying that they both have their place and in the right hands they can produce the desired results.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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 - posted 05-05-2002 09:38 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry Bobby, but both you and Gord are wrong. Modern anamorphics still exhibit a shallower depth of field even at high T stops as compared to modern spherical lenses at the same T stop. It is partly due to the compression factor and also the inclusion of counter rotating diopters in the lens to keep compression constant. I've shot film with modern Panavison anamorphics myself and the B&L Cinemascope lenses I have actually give slightly better depth of focus than modern Panavision lenses but do not have the constant compression factor nor the great contrast that these modern lenses do. Sorry guys, but till you've shot with all three formats and both old and new anamorphs yourself you wouldn't understand.
I think David put it well when he said that all of these formats can produce the desired results when in the right hands.
Mark


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John Pytlak
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 - posted 05-06-2002 11:56 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Size DOES Matter!"

Two recent movies that really took maximum advantage of the 35mm anamorphic production format are "Moulin Rouge" and "The Thin Red Line" --- very sharp images with almost no graininess.

"Super-35" can be "Done Right" too: e.g., "Titanic", "True Lies". But underexposure or using inappropriately fast film stocks can result in grainy images.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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John Pytlak
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 - posted 05-06-2002 12:14 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Size DOES Matter!"

Camera negative image area that ends up on the screen:

1.912 x 0.870 inches: 65mm 5-perf 2.20:1

1.912 x 0.800 inches: 65mm 5-perf 2.39:1

0.825 x 0.690 inches: 35mm anamorphic 2.39:1

0.945 x 0.394 inches: Super-35 2.39:1

0.825 x 0.345 inches: Techniscope 2.39:1

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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 - posted 05-06-2002 12:42 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Size sure didn't matter on Far And Away..........
Mark

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John Pytlak
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 - posted 05-06-2002 01:00 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Depth of field is more critical with larger camera formats. Either more light (smaller f/stop) or more care (in focus pulling) is needed.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Michael Brown
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Bradford, England
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 - posted 05-06-2002 04:52 PM      Profile for Michael Brown   Email Michael Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was watching Crossroads and i found that to be grainy. It's flat not scope. Could that be originally Super 35 but the film makers decided to go with 1.85:1 theatrical prints for some reason?

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Gordon McLeod
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 - posted 05-06-2002 05:04 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark I compared some of the rear element anamorphics on a taylor hobsin and they had great depth of focus

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Darren Briggs
Master Film Handler

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From: York, UK
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 - posted 05-06-2002 05:43 PM      Profile for Darren Briggs   Author's Homepage   Email Darren Briggs   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote.
Size sure didn't matter on Far And Away..........
Mark
The 70mm print I saw of 'far and away' looked stuning, i guess you just didnt like the film then?

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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 - posted 05-06-2002 06:16 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Darren,

No, I thought overall that 65mm was as waste on Far And Away. It was just was not very good looking film inspite of the 65mm cinematography....way too much diffusion was used to be able to tell what format it was shot in. There are alot of older films that looked far better than Far And Away! Sure the 70mm prints would provide brighter, steadier images with less visible dust and scratches but it is what was put on the negative that I didn't care much for.

Gord,
You won't find too many rear anamorphs being used on large productions except for crash cams. Most 1st assistants go to what ever camera house the equipment is comming from and hand select the lenses for best color match, etc...these are ususally integrated units from Panavision, Arriflex, etc., that have already been optimized by the manufacturer. About the only advantage I can think of to using rear anamorphs is that there is usually less weight to the lens and they are a bit smaller...also keep in mind that using these attachments usually takes a given Superspeed lens OUT of the Superspeed catagory as the anamorph uses up a bit of light when at the rear of a lens. These days those super high speed integrated lenses, be they anamorphic, or spherical, are very important...although I don't necessarily agree with the way they are used alot of the time.
Mark

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
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 - posted 05-06-2002 07:46 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not a motion picture DP, but I do know enough about film photography in general (particularly from my art school training and insight from some of my father's Pulitzer Prize winning news photographer friends) that a bigger negative is going to give you an ultimately better picture.

It is true that the balance of exposure, lighting and focus gets ever more critical with the larger the film negative, but a larger negative is going to have better contrast, better color quality and an overall sharper image. A smaller negative is easier to shoot. It takes more skill to correctly photograph a larger one. People using Hasselblad view cameras really have to know their stuff.

"Far and Away" had its own problems here and there, but there were plenty of points in that film where is was noticeably much sharper and richer in color than any 35mm 'scope film. Out of 1990's 70mm films, I tend to point out "Baraka" as a good example of 70mm work. I think the motion control shots of stars rotating around the earth's axis with Monument Valley and Bryce Canyon mountains as a backdrop ranks as some of the best imagery I've ever seen on 70mm.

I see the same general differences in color quality, contrast quality and sharp image with anamorphic 35mm shows. If done well, anamorphic 35mm looks better than just about any Super35 show. With the grain getting stretched out too much, its like putting only two tea bags in a gallon of sun tea when you really need at least eight. It gets weak.

One thing that also has to be mentioned with Super35 is how a growing number of those shows are using digital intermediate techniques to work in CGI, but also attempt to hide the flaws (grain, poor color rendition) that come about in Super35 origination. "Lord of the Rings" is a good example of that.

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