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Author Topic: Port glass and lens cleaning
John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-19-2002 07:25 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
William Hooper said: "You might try replacing them with optical glass."

I agree that Plexiglas and Lexan are not the best choice for port "glass". They scratch easily, and may introduce considerable flare, reducing image contrast. The suggestion of finding anti-reflection coated glass from old copiers is a good one.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-20-2002 01:43 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Finally a way to recycle some of this obsolete computer stuff. And just in time for me, because as I mentioned, after 10 years, my Lexan is showing minute scratches even though the Lexan brand is supposed to be tougher than your garden variety plexi.

Thing is, I looked at the glass on both our big expensive copier and a retired scanner and the glass in neither looks like it's coated -- at least not as I can tell just by eyeballing it. I wonder if there is the same need in the scanner application for coated glass as there is for projection. I'll see if there are any more technical details somewhere on the manufacturers' websites. The other thing I notice, although I haven't yet dismantled the scanner, is that it doesn't seem like the glass is as thick as port glass. That would bother me as we only use a single piece, not double.

I'll report back when I find out some more.

Frank

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Rick Long
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 759
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 06-21-2002 03:05 PM      Profile for Rick Long   Email Rick Long   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was interested in Mark Ogden's comment about it being best not to use paper or cloth that had possible fabric softener in it for cleaning glass. (Maybe this accounts for the success of McDonald's paper napkins - perhaps not having a fabric softener used?).

I was impressed with the glass cleaner from General Motors, so I decided to use it along with newsprint.

In Toronto, there are four main papers.
The Globe and Mail is read by those who run the province.
The Toronto Daily Star is read by those who think someone else should run the province.
The Financial Times is read by those who own the province.
The readers of the Toronto Sun don't give a damn who runs the province as long as the Sunshine girl on page 3 has large breasts.

I chose the Sun.

I made up a loop from a discarded trailer (to protect the lens) ran the projector with lamp, and proceeded to the auditorium. Thanks to the "brilliant" design of the non-opening ports in this particular theatre, I was forced to grab an 8 ft. ladder in route.

The picture being projected through the port-hole showed any spots I might other-wise have missed. I used the FLAT lens btw (which provided the largest image on the port glass).

Spraying the automotive glass cleaner and then scrubbing the port glass, I then let it begin to dry, and followed up with a fresh piece of newsprint.

In the booth, with the picture still running, I repeated the process (being careful not to let any of the spray hit the projection lens).


I was pleasantly surprised with the results. I had a much clearer port than I had been formerly able to achieve with Windex and Bounty.

Colour contrast in the projected image was greatly improved.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 07-13-2002 03:32 AM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bumping this up for Brooks.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-13-2002 06:23 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As long as this is bumped back to the top, let me ask another question -- it's not exactly port glass, but it IS glass so.....Is the heat filter glass as susceptible to finger oil as is the xenon quartz envelope? Today I checked the filter on one of our ORC 4500w lamphouses and found that it had finger prints burned into the silverish/pinkish coating. It was also badly cracked and then it fell apart in my hands as I tried to clean it. I assume that any contaminant, especially finger prints, will cause uneven heating of the filter glass and thus the cracked filter, just like finger prints on the xenon bulb will damage it.

Now the question is, can I use ANY infrared filter, such as that sold by Edmund Scientific? Or is there some special deal with the filters in these higher wattage lamphouses? As I recall the ones sold by the manufacturer were fairly expensive and the price is by size. So what would be the problem taking a smaller piece and placing it closer to the aperture, say just behind the shutter (we're using Century DAWs) -- that would require a smaller and therefore less expensive piece. But of course a smaller piece probably won't deal with the infrared as well as a large one, right?


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 07-17-2002 09:49 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, fingerprints or other contaminants on the surface of ANY optical element subjected to the very intense radiant energy and heating in a projector are likely to cause permanent damage to that element.

An auxillary dichroic heat filter should reflect the invisible infrared energy (>700 nanometres) to a heatsink, whilst passing the visible light (400 to 700 nanometres) to illuminate the film. As the power is increased or the size of the beam decreased, the heat load on the filter (watts per square millimetre of area) increases, and the base material of the filter needs to be able to withstand the heating. Usually, quartz or PYREX glass are used. Common optical glass is more likely to break, as its thermal expansion coefficient is greater. The filter should NOT be mounted rigidly, as it needs room to expand and contract with heating and cooling. With dichroic filters, the angle of reflection is critical to the "cutoff" wavelength, and needs to be specified.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-18-2002 06:42 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As always, John, thanks for the wealth of information.

So from what you are saying, the filter can be either an absorbing filter that absorbs infrared and passes white, or it can be a dichroic filter that reflects infrared and passes white. I wish I new which one we were getting (they are replacing the broken one -- new filter (costs over $400). If it is a dichoric, then you are saying the angle at which it is installed has to be precise? I am assuming ORCON's filter slots are designed so that will happen if it is dichroic. My gut tells me these are not, only because they don't look anything like a dichroic reflector glass material, but reflectors are a different animal, so that might not apply. Plus, I don't see any obvious heat sink.

While we are waiting for the replacement pieces (they come in two halves that are held together by the slot they sit in) I am going to have to use the filters off the old Eastman 25B carbon arc lamphouse. It is oversized enough so it covers the full shutter opening, yet compact enought that it will fit in the ORC mating cone. We'll see if it cracks into a million pieces because of the heat. The carbon arc in that lamphouse was only burning 50A, not nearly as much energy as a 4500W xenon in the ORCON.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 07-18-2002 09:15 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A dichroic heat filter that reflects IR and passes the visible light gets hot, but not nearly as hot as a heat filter made to ABSORB the IR energy (e.g., Pittsburgh 2043 heat glass). At very high power levels, the dichroic heat filters are a better choice.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-19-2002 10:28 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, we ran last night -- opening night at the Movies in the Park (Celebrate Brooklyn Summer Festival) -- without incident. Evidently the old Eastman 25B heat glass worked fine -- didn't crack or shatter and the film, Harold Lloyd's SPEEDY with the Aloy Orchestra, didn't suffer, despite the improvised heat filter. Audience of 2000 endured a some on-and-off drizzle during the presentation -- quite amazing to see them sitting there in the rain, but they seemed unbothered -- we only lost a handful who had toddlers with them.

To get the filter holder in place, I simply slid the lamphouse back a quarter of an inch so I could stick heat filter unit in between the ORCON exit cone and the docking cone of the Century, then refocus the bulb a tad, and we were in business.

Here's an intersting aside -- one of the reels of SPEEDY, which was a near mint print, except for 3 or 4 accordian splices at each of the reel joints (who teaches these people how to splice?), about a half of the third reel changed from B&W stock to color stock and had tinted sequences. At first I though, well, this was intended and done to recreate the original tinted presentation. But that can't be because why wouldn't the rest of the film be tinted? My guess is that a section of that reel was damaged and they replaced it with footage from another version where color film was used. Is anyone familiar with this title -- did it have a few tinted sections and most of the rest of the film was in B&W? It certainly was disconcerting, all of a sudden seeing color. And it is amazing how we forget how good B&W looks -- I mean really sharp as a tack -- then <SPLICE> and there's color -- not exactly soft focus, but not as crisp as the B&W either. Ah, how much those other two emulsion layers change the apparent resolution. I was very glad it switched back to B&W for the last reel.

Frank

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Joe Beres
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 606
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 01-27-2003 12:10 PM      Profile for Joe Beres   Email Joe Beres   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm dredging this one up in hopes of finding an expert on plexiglass and other like products. We will be replacing our plexiglass booth window soon, hopefully, and have some questions. First off, I must mention that the piece of material we're replacing is approximately 22"x100", so the cost of optical glass makes that an impossibility. I want to look into lexan for the reasons that Frank Angel mentioned, but does anyone know if a particular type or brand of plexiglass or a like material optically better, or are they all comparable?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 01-27-2003 12:27 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe Beres wrote: "the piece of material we're replacing is approximately 22"x100", so the cost of optical glass makes that an impossibility."

Does it really need to be that big? Couldn't you frame the actual projection port to the minimum size needed (e.g., 22 x 22 inches) to allow high quality port glass, and use Plexiglas or Lexan for the rest? Are you double glazing for sound? If not, that's an awful lot of area for unwanted sound transmission.

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Joe Beres
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 606
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 01-27-2003 01:03 PM      Profile for Joe Beres   Email Joe Beres   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,
Unfortunately, that is not an option. Our venue is multipurpose; it is used for film and video projection, lectures, theater, concerts, dance, and virtually anything else you can put on the stage. Therefore, our port glass is used for a multitude of things: 35mm changeover projection, 16mm pedestal projection, video projection, slide projection, occasionally a follow spot, and is sometimes used as a tech booth for production managers and sound recordists. Often, we need to reconfigure the booth and projector placement for a particular event, so having optical glass in only certain areas could potentially limit our options for non-film (or partial film) events, much to my colleagues dismay. [Frown] Sound leakage is certainly an issue, but we really need all of the viewable space and the versatility a single piece of material provides. Thanks for the suggestion though. [Smile]

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Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Film God

Posts: 3977
From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from)
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 01-27-2003 01:07 PM      Profile for Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Author's Homepage   Email Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe, this should be of some help:

Lexan Technical Data

Properties of Principal Optical Plastics

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 01-27-2003 02:11 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe Beres wrote: "Our venue is multipurpose; it is used for film and video projection..."

I know the feeling. Several Kodak screening rooms were forced to have large windows, precluding the use of coated optical glass (although we still do use high quality "water white" plate glass, and avoid plastics). But for critical image evaluation, we can move the glass out of the way if needed.

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John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 01-27-2003 04:34 PM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Being in much a similar boat, I've wondered at the feasability of framing optical glass within a larger sheet of general purpose glass.

Joe, what's wrong with having an optical glass port at the spot where your 35mm projectors usually are, and if they have to move elsewhere for some special event, well, it won't look as good as it might, but at least it'll look better all the rest of the time.

--jhawk

p.s.: in the implausible department, imagine having a window composed of modular glass pieces that you could move around and swap in and our as needed by the position of various sources...

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