>>"The electronics industry has a host of its' own environmental issues to deal with too: Electronics Industry Environmental."<<

Sure, but once the projector is made, it won't have to be replaced for another 5 years ...a film print is something that lasts less than one showing according to some and most are trashed in less than a year. The environmental waste of the medium of DCinema (CDs or the stupid idea over the air) has less impact.

>>"And did you ever think of the environmental impact of those rockets used to launch communication satellites? Even "space junk" is becoming a real issue"<<

Personally, I don't buy into the alleged environmental impacts most envirowackos though out, popular opinion, or not. But even so, the cost both $$$ and environmental still sides with silicon, not film.

Everything pollutes, even people. It is a matter of what society wants to have for freedom, comfort and such versus a perceived environmental problem. You may see an environment problem, I do not.

">>Yes, there are tradeoffs. But there ARE significant quality advantages too."<<

There are virtually NO quality advantages...about the only thing you can throw up is rejection rate due to poor application. Presumming a properly applicated soundtrack, the cyan track is at best 2nd rate. Also, cyan is typically the first dye to fade, what a great concept for longevity. What will the signal level be in 10 years, 20, 30....? How about abrasion (and don't give me your limited studies of acceptability) I mean stand it up toe-to-toe with an applicated soundtrack running months, how does the noise compare? A scratch on either side of a cyan print will be read as a scratch anywhere in the soundtrack area. The current LED lights are quite collimated, any scratch presents a hard line and more noise.

>>"If some exhibitors have this much difficulty converting to red LED readers because of cost, how will they ever accept the much more expensive conversion to digital cinema? IMHO, film WILL be "the medium of choice" for years to come, so investment and improvement in the film system is still worthwhile."<<

It is partially the money but there is NO improvement for the exhibitor, just a drop in quality. There is no selling point to the cyan track/red light based on just the red light. Now, most of the systems have a reverse scan reader, that is something that CAN be sold. It will improve the analog soundtrack. Also, those theatres that upgraded to digital sound see the analog track as just the backup, why invest anything more than the bare minimum into it?

As to Jess' research...baloney. A red reader playing a conventional analog track is so harsh as to be unacceptable (cross mod distortion)...unless you have one of the few films that seems to play ok. Furthermore, I have one exhibitor that does play older films and they had me install an IR LED to overcome the fact the RED LED just wouldn't play some of their films.

Steve

I'm glad Kodak puts a priority on environmental responsibility, and doesn't settle for the status quo, "It's always been done that way", attitude.

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

You have to admire any attempt to reduce pollution in an already seriously polluted world, and it is clear that there is no significant financial benefit for Kodak in changing to cyan soundtracks. It is also patently obvious to anyone with even a most modest degree of technical knowledege, that changing to cyan results in a reduction in the quality of analog soundtracks. So, one must ask what is the benefit for a company like Dolby, who do not make or develop film stock, in promoting a change to cyan soundtracks? Ioan Allen has been at the forefront of promoting this technology and we must all ask WHY?? Some stroke of altruism in Ray Dolby's old age? Hardly! You do not have to look very far to see the answer. For a company that has spent much of it's existence trying to monopolise the film industry there are clear and significant financial benefits from forcing a change to red light readers. Until recently, every manufacturer of red light readers has had to buy it's essential parts from, guess who? Yes, they even hold a (seriously dubious) patent on using a red light source for a reverse scan reader!

So why are we really changing to cyan? I'll give you one more guess.

Sour grapes from a competing manufacturer? Naaah! We make better processors anyway. Just an excercise in freedom of speech!

Ray

This comment represents a personal view and is not necessarily the view of the company that (reluctantly) employs me.

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"Old projectionists never changeover, they just forget to push the button!"

So Steve,

You're saying, forgetting about cyan tracks, that even on conventional tracks a "white reader" would be superior to a reverse scan red reader? We play old prints. Would I be better off exchanging the Kelmar red reader for what? Who makes infra-red readers? Or would it be better for me to go back to a standard exiter and just get one of those new super-fine slit lenses that became available just before reverse scan became the hot new toy?

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Frank: Knowing that you do care about quality, are YOU satisfied with the quality of analog sound you are getting from your Kelmar Red LED readers? Are your audiences satisfied? Are the Kelmar readers an improvement over what you had before? Have any prints with older soundtracks presented a problem?

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

An infra-red LED reverse scan reader is identical in every respect to a red LED reverse scan reader except for the colour of the LED, a colour change that Dolby miraculously managed to obtain a patent for. (I love to labour that point).

An infra-red light source provides the best signal-to-noise performance because solar cells are most sensitive in this area of the spectrum. Also some older soundtrack formats like magenta variable density will not play satisfactorily on a red LED reader, obviously Jess forgot to test that type of track (or maybe was he encouraged to ignore it?).

I suspect that you may still be able to buy infra-red LEDs from Kelmar (who orignally made the infra-red readers) and fit them to your red LED readers. However an infra-red system will not read a cyan track.

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Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

A magenta dye-only track will not play well on an IR reader either. To my knowledge, Jess Daily tested the wide variety of old tracks he had access to in the UCLA film archive, and was not constrained by anyone.

Ray

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Ray is right and I though I had stated it earlier...DO NOT CONFUSE REVERSE SCAN with Red readers...they have nothing to do with each other...The fact that most of the red readers include the reverse scan was necessary to sell the idiotic concept. In fact, the first step in the plot WAS IR LEDs on reverse scan readers. Then the sudden shift to RED LEDs. An IR led with a good reverse scan reader and a good conventional analog soundtrack with Dolby-SR is indeed the best the SVA track has ever seen (heard).

I have my own opinions as to why Dolby and Kodak are so eager to force 2nd-rate red readers on everyone but I do not wish, nor feel I can express them here.

But back to the issue at hand. If you are a rep/art house and you play a lot of older film, I would STRONGLY recommend you switch from a red LED to an IR LED (keep your red LED in case the the stupid cyan thing takes hold if you want). Be prepaired though...you will have to reduce your gain (further increasing the S/N of your system) and guess what? You Dolby level will be VASTLY more stable over many thousands of hours.

As to sourcing IR LEDs you can check with Kelmar, Component Engineering or even Dolby labs (Dolby part number 32054).

Until the unlikely day cyan tracks infect the planet, you have virtually nothing to lose in this. IR LEDs will play all of the current soundtracks (conventional and Hi-Magenta) as well as B&W.

I have found that the polarity of the IR LEDs is opposite of the visible red ones so be careful when you switch (if you switch).

Steve

The only conspiracy is to improve the environment. All three major print film manufacturers support the conversion to cyan dye tracks. Although not yet compelled by regulations, the environmental advantages ARE compelling.

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Without having had the opportunity to test a piece of this type of soundtrack myself I have put it down to some linearity incompatibility with 660nm red light or it may also be related to the extremely narrow slit size in reverse scan readers or as I think you may have suggested in the past, cross mod characteristics, but without test results this is just conjecture on my part, this is your department rather than mine. However in every case, reverting the system to the former exciter lamp system restores the soundtrack to it's former glory and installing a infrared LED seems to improve it substantially over a red LED system.

As these films go way back before my involvement with cinema sound I have no idea which labs printed them, but I am aware of the existence of a variety of material in this format still floating around Australia, including feature films like "40,000 Horsemen" through to short pieces like the OLD Australian national anthem "God save the queen". So it is possible that at least a proportion of these films were printed downunder.

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Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935