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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Dynamic Range Limiting
David Rigby
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 134
From: Chorlton, Manchester, UK
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 06-21-2002 05:52 AM      Profile for David Rigby   Email David Rigby   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Would compressors be of any help with old mono prints? Seems like on older prints you have to crank up the sound to make dialog intelligible only to be deafened in the next five minutes by some extremely loud and shrill high end! Or is this just a limitation of the old mono recording and/or mono optical track that can't be fixed?

David

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Oscar Neundorfer
Master Film Handler

Posts: 275
From: Senoia, GA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 06-21-2002 06:48 AM      Profile for Oscar Neundorfer   Author's Homepage   Email Oscar Neundorfer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here is what the SMART Afterburner does. It is a 6 channel dynamic range compressor. It has an adjustable threshold, usually (but not always) set for around 85 dB SPL as the point where the compression starts. 5 channels are ganged together so that if one channel begins to reduce gain, then all 5 channels reduce to maintain balance. The 6th channel is independent of the other 5 channels and is used for sub so you can reduce sub gain with a lower threshold if you want to help prevent leakage between screens.

Below the threshold nothing happens. So soft and subtle material is not altered. Above the threshold, there is a 2 to 1 gain reduction in dB. If the signal increases 10 dB, for example, then the output increases only 5 dB. For a 20 dB input change, the output changes only 10 dB. So if the threshold was set to 85 dB spl, then a signal that would normally hit 105 dB spl only goes to 95 dB spl.

The effect is without any noticeable artifacts, at least none that I can hear, and certainly none that have been reported to me. It is so smooth in its operation that you don't really notice it is doing anything until you turn it off and suddenly things are louder.

Originally it was introduced to address the problem of digital mixes gone wild with dynamic range that the vast majority of cinemas simply could not handle. We took a lot of heat for daring to mess with someone's artistic discretion, but let's face it, most cinemas simply could not handle the extreme dynamic range in some mixes. Sound leakage between screens and painful levels were not acceptable. Blown drivers and amps were not acceptable. The inability to hear dialog because the overall level had to be turned down was not acceptable. This product filled a need at the time.

Since then, mixes are a little less "enthusiastic", and the problem is not as severe although it still does exist. Systems have been improved with more powerful amps and more capable speakers.

Then the problem of loud trailers began to get a lot of attention. So the latest ploy with the Afterburner is to put it just in front of the amps so that it catches everything including optical and digital sound. Loud trailers are tamed down, too-loud digital or optical mixes are softened a bit, and the overall result is good.

It has a DISABLE switch on the front panel to turn off compression if you don't need it for a particular film, and then easily enable it when you do need it.

The product serves a definite need, and I understand that not everyone would want to use it, but those who have used it would not do without it.

------------------
Oscar Neundorfer
Chief Engineer
SMART Devices, Inc.

oscar@smartdev.com

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Jeff Taylor
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 601
From: Chatham, NJ/East Hampton, NY
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 06-21-2002 07:23 AM      Profile for Jeff Taylor   Email Jeff Taylor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greg: If you want to experiment a bit you'll find tons of compressors on ebay--typically dbx stereo units which tend to go for around $100. I also picked up a dbx stereo bass synthesizer with sub output which is quite helpful with older titles in filling out the sound and creating a more dynamic listening experience. All of these units tend to be single space rack mounts.

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Jamie Sanson
Film Handler

Posts: 33
From: Port Macquarie,NSW, Australia
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 06-21-2002 08:23 AM      Profile for Jamie Sanson   Email Jamie Sanson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As we all know not all cinemas are the same. Use what ever special tools you need to get the end result.

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Oscar Neundorfer
Master Film Handler

Posts: 275
From: Senoia, GA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 06-21-2002 08:25 AM      Profile for Oscar Neundorfer   Author's Homepage   Email Oscar Neundorfer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The problem with using stereo units that you might find on ebay or elsewhere is that you probably can't tie the units together in multiples so that all channels compress at the same rate at the same time. This is a necessary factor to avoid having unequal gain reduction, and therefore an imbalance, between channels.

------------------
Oscar Neundorfer
Chief Engineer
SMART Devices, Inc.

oscar@smartdev.com

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-21-2002 09:15 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In the sound studio we have lots of compressors, threshold limiters and expanders; there is no lack of manufacturers or price ranges of this type of tool in the audio industry. Many contain the three different functions within the same unit, depending on how you set the parameters. They are pro units and not nearly as cheap as the semi-pro and consumer stuff out there but pro units use balanced circuitry, and that alone makes them worth the extra bucks. In a booth environment, introducing unbalanced equipment is introducing potential trouble.

Then there's the question of ganging the channels (most pro units are designed to be ganged and have a loopthru option -- that wouldn't be a problem). BUT, ganging presents its own set of very audible artifacts -- namely, you don;t necessarily want ALL the channels to duck just because one has reached the threshold. That is a bad thing even in a two channel stereo system; I contend it could REALLY sound disturbing in a 6 channel system -- get a loud explosion in the left channel and the rest of the fronts channel and the surrounds drop 10 dB. for a second. That kind of pumping will be quite noticeable. To avoid this, using multiple stereo units would have the advantage that you could gang whichever channels you choose -- for example, the system could be configured so that this kind of "everybody duck" artifact is minimized -- if one stereo unit is set up to limit L&R independent of the other channels and another for the Surrounds and a third for the center channel and subs (this one can be decoupled so that the stereo channels are running independently), you would get better sonic results. I don't imagine the Smart unit will be that flexible.

I use a Valley People compressor, limiter and expander unit in the booth, not to limit dynamic range, but it is set as an expander for mag prints on the surround channel to quiet any hiss and edge noise (caused by uneven mag stripes) when no sound is present -- it pretty much replaces the old relay that originally would turn the surrounds on when the 12k trigger tone was present. The VP is set as a gentle expander and it is much more effective. The same unit can be set as a compressor or a limiter, whatever the user needs.

I don't know the cost of the Smart unit (as described, it is really being used as a hard threshold limiter rather than a compressor), but buying the three studio type compressor/limiterss would probably cost the same or more than the Smart unit, although more than likely they will would give you a lot more control. You can fine tune the threshold level, the compression ratio above threshold, the attach and release times, etc. Problem is, unless you are pretty much the only one in the booth who is allowed to touch anything, this kind of unit in your audio chain could REALLY mess stuff up if some dumbass decided to "adjust" it. The Smart, I imagine, is a simpler IN or Out affair with minimum controls exposed to booth monkeys.

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-21-2002 09:19 AM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"The inability to hear dialog because the overall level had to be turned down was not acceptable."

Exactly my problem.
The incredible amount of dynamic range offered by DTS, Dolby Digital, even SR are wonderful. But if I get the subtle whispers audible, then when a crescendo in the music takes place, (or that type of enunciation) its actually painful, the spl is so great. So I figure just a smidge of compression would allow me to bring up the whispers and bring down the explosions and be able to hear the intent of the mixer, without my ears bleeding. Maybe I can get the dial up to 7 and be able to enjoy the artistic intent of the soundtrack!
Thanks for explaining your gizmo Oscar, I think I'm gonna try one.
I'll let y'all know how it works out

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Oscar Neundorfer
Master Film Handler

Posts: 275
From: Senoia, GA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 06-21-2002 10:14 AM      Profile for Oscar Neundorfer   Author's Homepage   Email Oscar Neundorfer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank wrote:

"BUT, ganging presents its own set of very audible artifacts -- namely, you don;t necessarily want ALL the channels to duck just because one has reached the threshold. That is a bad thing even in a two channel stereo system; I contend it could REALLY sound disturbing in a 6 channel system -- get a loud explosion in the left channel and the rest of the fronts channel and the surrounds drop 10 dB. for a second. That kind of pumping will be quite noticeable."

Frank, I am no expert on all the different types of compressors/limiters out there, and I know there are many. Our unit does not work exactly like you are describing. The control path is what I would term a feedforward design. The control signal is NOT being derived from the output and fed back. The control is being derived from the input signal. Therefore, there is no sudden 10 db drop as you mentioned in your example. There is really not any audible pumping at all. What happens is that as any channel or combination of channels increases above the threshold level, the level at the outputs simply does not rise at the same rate as the input level. There is no ducking involved (assuming I am thinking of ducking as you are), just a lesser increase in level as compared to the input.

I am not sure I am adequately explaining the action, but having heard compressors that do as you describe, I can assure you that this unit does not have the problem you have mentioned.

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Evans A Criswell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1579
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 06-21-2002 10:21 AM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't like the idea of dynamic range compression of audio, but I've learned the hard way that sometimes it is necessary and, in some environments, can improve the listenability of audio.

Case 1: Listening to music in an automobile: When I first tried listening to a CD player or tapes that I'd made on a high-end tape deck through my car's audio system, I found that quiet sections were inaudible if the louder portions were played at a reasonable volume. I found that when I heard these same songs on the car's FM radio, this problem did not occur.

Case 2: Listening to music in my office at low volume: The same thing occurs. Quiet portions of songs get lost with only the loud portions audible.

Case 3: Playing movies with large dynamic range for people like my parents: If I set the volume so that dialogue is clear and understandable, the special effects and music bother them and my mother will ask "Can you run it down?" Then guess what, when the effects or music is over, they can't hear the dialogue. I have to constantly adjust the volume up and down during the entire movie.

Dynamic range compression can be very useful in situations like the above, so I can see that it would be very useful in theatres in cases where there was a lot of ambient noise or when a theatre is crowded with more than average noise from customers.

------------------
Evans A Criswell
Huntsville-Decatur Movie Theatre Information Site

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John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 06-21-2002 11:06 AM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For some time, we've had peripheral thoughts about installing compression for our booth monitors; that's a clear case where fidelity is not of ultra-importance, but there's a lot of ambient noise in the environment, making it difficult to hear quite passages without turning things up sufficiently loud that we get clipping on the loud portions.

Of course, the budget for booth monitors is more limited; does anyone have experience deploying compression in this sort of budget-limitted less-than-top-quality environment?

--jhawk

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Oscar Neundorfer
Master Film Handler

Posts: 275
From: Senoia, GA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 06-21-2002 12:18 PM      Profile for Oscar Neundorfer   Author's Homepage   Email Oscar Neundorfer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Although not exactly an economy monitor, the Panastereo CX230-EX has compression built in along with a 25 Watt amplifier to enable reasonably loud monitoring without clipping.

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Jesse Skeen
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1517
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 06-21-2002 12:49 PM      Profile for Jesse Skeen   Email Jesse Skeen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just my 2 cents, I think dynamic range compression is a bad idea in any case. I live in an apartment so can't play my sound system too loud late at night, and my system does have a setting to limit dynamic range in those cases, but instead I just keep the volume turned down as needed.
I worked at a 16-screen theater that had Afterburners installed, and they were causing a click in the left-surround channel in almost every auditorium, and were also causing background noise- all these problems disappeared when I disconnected them. Maybe they work better when properly installed, but it seems like the time and money would be better spent elsewhere- if your amps and speakers can't "handle" digital sound, why not just stick with analog until you can upgrade them?

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-21-2002 01:46 PM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well I've got plenty of amp and speakers. That's not the problem. Maybe just the opposite. Maybe if I had amps that would clip in the intense spots it would be better
I'm using QSC DCA1622s and JBL 4648s with 2380A horns and JBL 2445J drivers, in a screening room. So I don't think I'm taxing them.
The only other area that I'm not sure about is the QSC cross overs on the back of the amps. I can't remember their model number but they separate the LF and the HF, so one channel does the bottom end and the other does the top. It's the only part that I can think of that might cause erratic behavior, but judging by the quality of QSC's stuff it's not something that I really suspect.

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-21-2002 03:55 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have installed many afterburners and none have added any clicks pops or noise

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-21-2002 04:20 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
"But if I get the subtle whispers audible, then when a crescendo in the music takes place, (or that type of enunciation) its actually painful, the spl is so great."

I still have a feeling your high frequency rolloff is not tapered to the room quite right. This should not be a problem. If you experienced it on one or maybe two films, then ok, but if you are experiencing it on every film, your system needs tuning.

How are the acoustics of the room? It isn't too "live" is it?

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