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This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4 
 
Author Topic: New Technicolor Survey
Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-17-2002 12:46 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Helmut, this is facinating stuff. Here's a thought -- has there been any experimentation with what actually shatters the these reels? I mean exactly how and when do they break? It's not the guy who puts it in the can at TES -- I am assuming they go out in one piece. It's not the guy in the booth -- he doesn't drop the reels down two flights of stairs. So it has to happen in transit, right? Perhaps once the strongest/cost effective material for the reel flanges is found, further study needs to be made on the cans themselves. Maybe adding some sort of impact absorbing lining on the cans might cut the problem down significantly. I mean, I see prints shipped in cans that look like they have been in WWII. You can't very well expect reels to hold up if they have to be hammered into bent cans.

When you have to force a reel into an old can, it seems obvious that if the can is later thrown or dropped, the energy at the point of impact is going to be transfered directly to the reel on the other side of that metal which was already compacted in the can. Perhaps the plastic shipping containers are better than metal. Or perhaps the can design needs a completely new approach. Maybe a different shape or significant amount of padding added as an intergral part of the container.

We run lots of foreign prints, and I must say, their concept of shipping film sans reels but on cores instead and in plastic "cans" that are then shipped in regular cardboard boxes may be a solution. I've hardly ever seen film shipped this spill all over as it does with our conventional way with cans and the broken reels. And for platter makeup and breakdown, it really isn't all that more difficult using a split reel to mount from the core roll and then back again. Dealing with a film roll on a core and a split reel is a lot easier than dealing with a broken reel with half the film slippend off the roll.


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 07-17-2002 12:47 AM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bah! They are all junk. Give back the old tin reels. They fit everything.

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Peter Kerchinsky
Master Film Handler

Posts: 326
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 07-17-2002 04:36 AM      Profile for Peter Kerchinsky   Email Peter Kerchinsky   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm in total agreement with Paul on this one!
I got a print of NEVER AGAIN tonight at my theatre from TES and every, and I mean every, reel came apart as I was lifting it out of the cans. Damn. What a waste of my time trying to fiqure out how to put these crappy things back together. Not sure and really don't care who made them but they are complete shit.
Here's my solution to this guys and gals.
Ship the damn print in cartons on cores. We all buy split reels and go from there.
We do this every year at SIFF and it's no real hassle.

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Paul Konen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 981
From: Frisco, TX. (North of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-17-2002 09:27 AM      Profile for Paul Konen   Email Paul Konen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think a combination of materials would be nice.

Although the clasp in "D" is secure, it seemed that you had to bend it out a significant distance for it to unlatch. "A" seems like one of the better choices to ensure that reels comes with the pin holes lined up. "B" still has the chance of not having any holes lined up for breakdown. I have seem a few times with "C" that the reel has snapped off at the center leaving just the fastener. Also, fasteners "C" and "D" require that you flip the reel for final separation.

As far as the plastic is concerned, I would vote for either "C" or "D". "A" and "B" are very soft and if they get warped from storage, then more care needs to used during buildup / teardown because you are having to compensate for warpped plastic possibly scraping against film.

"A" Fastener, "C" or "D" plastic

Paul Konen
Cinemark Legacy 24

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-17-2002 10:16 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Has anyone ever seen a split reel that will work on a Christie MUT? Neither the Goldberg nor the Neumade ones have the hole for the "drive-dog" (and only the 4" cores have this hole, anyway). As a result, it takes significantly longer to break a film down onto cores, as one must first break it down onto house reels (6000' or 2000') and then rewind it onto cores on the rewind bench. I suppose one could drill a hole into a normal split reel, but not everyone has a drill in the booth.

Even in a reel-to-reel booth, it can be annoying to deal with film shipped on cores, as one must have two good split reels (most places are lucky to have one) to take up on, unless one wants to rewind everything again after the last show.

Why do Christie platter MUTs use "dog drive" anyway? Obviously it's needed for 1/2" shaft reels, but why didn't they use the standard "key"-type drive for the 5/16" reel shaft? (obviously, the shaft would need to be re-designed, as the single screw that holds it in wouldn't work if that shaft were keyed).

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 07-17-2002 12:26 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The physical properties of plastics can also vary with temperature and age. How do the various materials hold up when stored and shipped under very cold (sub-freezing) and very hot conditions? Plastics containing solvents or plasticizers may become brittle with age. Finally, the plastics should not "outgas" chemicals that may harm the film during long term storage (e.g., PVC is a no-no). And in an ideal world, plastic reels should be made of recycleable materials.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Michael Rourke
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 159
From: San Luis Obispo, Central Coast of CA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 07-17-2002 02:14 PM      Profile for Michael Rourke   Email Michael Rourke   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I like reels C and D; however there is nothing wrong with A and B provided they aren't the flexible variety and they have the proper cores, which doesn't happen often.

Anytime I get the C or D reels with 3 hole cores in them, I swap them for the two hole cores I have on hand so that I am prepared for the more common A and B type reels with two hole cores leaving no hole for the drive pin on my MUT!

This morning I had to build 8 Legged Freaks and it was on A reels with cores that don't have holes at all, they have 4 wide tapered square openings.......the point is these reels are designed to locked together in a circular hole. This combo I received today fell apart when I picked up the reel.

Some of us projectionists should go get jobs wrapping reels, that's the only solution I see to the problem.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-17-2002 02:43 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Scott,

Just about any well designed make up table will have a drive dog for breaking down film. The key is not designed to take too much torque. From shipping reels this is even more true since their keyways are often just sheet metal or other thin material that can really cut into the key itself.

I believe on the Christie MUT, there are two tapped holes near spindle that will like up with the typical dog pin on a split reel...put the split reel on the MUT...screw the split reel to the dog plate and away you go. One of these days, I'm gonna try it myself!

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Helmut E. Dorausch
Film Handler

Posts: 18
From: Simi Valley, CA, USA
Registered: Jul 2002


 - posted 07-17-2002 03:59 PM      Profile for Helmut E. Dorausch   Author's Homepage   Email Helmut E. Dorausch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At the risk of appearing lazy, would someone please tell me where to contact Christie, re their MUT.
I have phoned several local theaters that are hesitent to allow me to inspect their equipment.
Any help would be appreciated
Helmut E. Dorausch
Transfilm Inc.
Manager of National Operations

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-17-2002 04:08 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Bevan Wright is the man you want to talk to at Christie. 714-236-8610

If it would help, I can take some pictures for you next week of how the reels fit on a Christie MUT. Please ship me one of yours so I will be able to use that in the pictures as well so you can see why they don't fit.


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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 07-17-2002 04:53 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My split reels do not have holes in them for the drive dogs. I have considered drilling a hole in one of them for use with the Christie MUT.

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Peter Kerchinsky
Master Film Handler

Posts: 326
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 07-18-2002 04:48 AM      Profile for Peter Kerchinsky   Email Peter Kerchinsky   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Scott
I agree with your comments on the Christie MUT regarding breaking down films on cores with a split reel.
However when we do get a film on cores I simply tear it down on 6000 foot reels then take those to my trusty Kel-Mar and wind them onto the cores with the split reel. Takes me about as much time as to try to fiqure out how in hell to put those crappy reels back together once they come apart.
After all, I'm paid by the hour!

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 07-18-2002 09:28 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As Steve Guttag noted, shipping reels need to meet the specifications of standard SMPTE 192-1997 to properly interface with rewinds, make-up tables, and projector spindles/magazines. Before any design is finalized, it should be tested on the wide variety of equipment the reels will be used on.

Copies of standards may be ordered from the SMPTE:

http://smpte.org/smpte_store/standards/

BTW, the standard for the cores used by the labs is SMPTE 37M-1999. If you are using the cores as the reel hub, you need a copy of this standard as well.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-18-2002 10:47 AM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm a little late on this due to an ISP outage, but ...

Most of the problem of broken reels stems from TES shipping them out in cans that are less than full. If they would fill up any empty spaces with empty reels (or better yet, put the proper number of reels in a can...THERE'S a thought!) the problem would go away. It's the reels flopping back and forth during shipment that causes the damage.

The empty-space problem is made worse by the DTS carrier. The carriers should be thinner, that way they could fit into a can filled with reels without jamming. Those carriers could be 1/4" thick and still protect the disks adequately.

We rarely have broken reels in our ETS shipments, because their cans are almost always full, with the DTS carrier crammed in (or the disks in plastic cases slipped between two reels.)

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Helmut E. Dorausch
Film Handler

Posts: 18
From: Simi Valley, CA, USA
Registered: Jul 2002


 - posted 07-30-2002 07:27 PM      Profile for Helmut E. Dorausch   Author's Homepage   Email Helmut E. Dorausch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Since my last visit, I have done a bit of research.
First off, I WILL be making an adjustment to the "sharp edge" of my reel.
I contacted Christie (Thank you, Brad) and they were kind enough to forward drawings of the drive pin in question. I am currently waiting for a physical sample.
During my correspondence with Christie, we concluded that the "difficulty" of using the Transfilm reel with this MUT, stems from the lack of a "through-hole", when the reel is mounted onto a core with only 2 holes.
(those cores are no longer being manufactured, yet I realize there are plenty in circulation)
Here comes the fun part.
The drive pin on the Christie MUT, is an aluminum shaft with 3/8 in threads, that stands off the plate, 1 3/8 inches. Christie has assured me that the length of the pin, "has no bearing on ANY functional aspect of their equipment, other than to obviously "drive the reel." "
I won't insult you, by suggesting that you merely cut off the additional length,
(in order that the drive pin stays beneath the middle of the core) even though
Christie told me it WON"T affect any other aspect of their machine.
For those of you that may be interested, I am hoping to make available shorter versions of the drive pin, that can be exchanged for the current pin.
(simply unsrcrew the existing, and replace with the new)
Ultimately, in trying to design a reel that is "universal" to existing 2 or 4 hole cores, I did not take into account that drive pins extended all the way through the reel.
Lastly, The suggestions of consulting SMPTE 192-1997 was rather ammusing. Sure looks to me like a "KEY WAY" is called for on 2000ft reels.
They even give dims. Why is there even a need for "drive-pins????
Anyone care to enlighten me???
Regards, and thank you again for your input.

Helmut E. Dorausch
Transfilm Inc.
Manager of National Operations
(818) 771-5390
(818) 771-5395


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