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Author Topic: Basic question about interlocking
Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 08-08-2002 07:39 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sure, selsyns were what were used to drive entire rooms full of dubbers in sync in the days before electronic drive. But those were driven by a master selsyn generator in turn driven by (if I have my facts straight) a switchable choice of a sync motor or a variable speed motor.

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Rick Sanjurjo
Film Handler

Posts: 26
From: Omaha, NE, USA
Registered: Jul 2002


 - posted 08-08-2002 07:52 AM      Profile for Rick Sanjurjo   Email Rick Sanjurjo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Darryl,

It is possible that the new motor replaced a nonsync motor and that the gearing of the sound head or projector did not change to reflect the difference in speed between a non-sync motor and a sync motor. The difference in speed is only about one perecent and it would be faster than than the other machines. If you have 5-stars the main pulley being driven by the motor should have 90 teeth on it for sync and 89 for non-sync.

Hope this helps
Rick

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-08-2002 09:06 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, more than two selsyns can be tied together.
Selsyn Motors
Wiring Diagram
Use in Fantasound (Fantasia)
Use in Cinerama

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 08-08-2002 11:30 AM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>It is possible that the new motor replaced a nonsync motor and that the gearing of the sound head or projector did not change to reflect the difference in speed between a non-sync motor and a sync motor. The difference in speed is only about one perecent and it would be faster than than the other machines. If you have 5-stars the main pulley being driven by the motor should have 90 teeth on it for sync and 89 for non-sync.<<


The motor that was replaced was on a projector that was already set up for interlock. Unless someone in the past had changed that pully on that machine with the wrong one, they all should be the same. But since this theater was not the main theater I worked at I could not be for sure if that happened. Next time I am at that theater to do some preventive maintenance I will check that pully.

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Richard Miller
Film Handler

Posts: 33
From: Lafayette, IN, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 08-18-2002 11:18 AM      Profile for Richard Miller   Email Richard Miller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If the motors were not exactly the same then the movie would appear in slow motion and the sound would be slow as well. If this happens then you have to get it fixed anyway. Other than that it runs at a steady rate through the projector.

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 08-18-2002 12:06 PM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The 1/2 to 1% difference in speed between a sync and non-sync motor would not be noticable to most persons while viewing. Century projector, prior to Strong and ORC ownership, once shipped us four sets of equipment with 50 HZ motors with 60 HZ gearing...THAT was obvious due to the speed up on the screen.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

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Martin Dean
Film Handler

Posts: 11
From: Duluth, MN, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 08-18-2002 02:21 PM      Profile for Martin Dean   Email Martin Dean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The most interesting interlock system I have seen was put together as a home made project by the Chief Projectionists at one of the theatres I used to look after. I had some input in the design, but most of it was done by him.

He wanted to interlock a Westrex 2001, a Cinemeccanica Vic 5 and a Philips ST-200 platter (three very diffferent components). His solution was to fit micro-invertors to each machine, changing the Westrex motor to a 3-Phase synchronus motor with a toothed belt drive. In between the two machines he fitted a compensator which had two microswitches added at top and bottom. He then fine tuned the two microinvertors to balance the speed of the two projectors as close as possible to 24fps. In order to take into account any minor fluctuations he used the two microswitches on the compensator to switch to alternitive frequency settings on one of the micro invertors to either speed the machine down or speed it up. All that was then needed was some basic control gear to start and stop the machines, switch from individual to interlocked mode, interface with the platter and link the failsafe systems.

In practise the system works very well, with very litle need of any input from the comensator micro switches. The actual speed difference used for comensation is so small that no obvious effect is seen (or heard) on screen.

Of course this is a complicated solution for same machine instillations, but for this situation it worked superbly (and was relativly cheap to do).

------------------
Martin Dean

martinidean@charter.net

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Bernard Tonks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 619
From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 08-18-2002 03:15 PM      Profile for Bernard Tonks   Email Bernard Tonks   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How about this for interlocking! It was quite common in the UK, to have a mechanical coupling bar between projectors 1 & 2 for dual projection 3D, which only could perfectly work. There was however Selsyn interlock in many cinemas such as the Warner, Leicester Square that ran two projector 3D “The House Of Wax” with four projectors & changeovers. There was also stereo sound which had to be run on separate follower soundheads!

During my days in television, for the station and outside clients, we could interlock four 16mm / 17.5 or 35mm multi follower heads, three 16mm double band projectors. One of three 16mm or three 35mm projectors with the picture was the master machine. If the Selsyn failed during a dubb, all hell would break lose,….. machines running forwards / backworks at incredible speeds. There would be a chorus of RUNAWAY as the picture projectionist dived to abort master control. It was always incredible that there was never any film damage!

Life became easier when the job became just Telecine and video, film was replaced by ENG. Eventually the company offered a number of staff early retirement, which I accepted and concentrated on running my cinema full time.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 08-18-2002 04:01 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I hate interlocking.

I have bad memories from early booth experiences where there was always drama with an interlock. I don't know why but, for some reason, those two projectors weren't running at exactly the same rate and the accumulator always ended up "accumulating" extra film. We'd lose tension every couple of shows.

But those were crappy projectors. Curiously, all of our newer installations - which could probably handle interlocking much more capably - are not set up for interlocking.

I just thought of another question: Why do some movies (like Star Wars: Episode II) have a "no interlock" policy built into the contract?

~Manny (the fresh-maker)

Here's a hidden bonus on this limited DVD Edition...

Back in the late-1980s, I needed to interlock two Super-8 projectors for a home-made 3D movie I made back in the 1980s. I had somebody convert the inching knobs to have bicycle chain gears on them so they could be physically tied together. I ran the master with its own motor and the slave was in an "idle" mode, driven by the bike chain.


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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-18-2002 04:24 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Episode II wasn't supposed to be interlocked? Umm...oops... I guess what George doesn't know won't hurt him.

(No problems at all with Century Projectors, Maxi-10 automations, and big, funky interlock box)

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Wes Hughes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 175
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 08-18-2002 04:29 PM      Profile for Wes Hughes   Email Wes Hughes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Interlocking is sometimes a mess because people have such different ways of setting up their interlock "systems."

I have operated a lot of smaller theatres and found the need to interlock more often than most.

I have used selsyn with up to three screens.

I currently sometimes interlock two century machines with sync motors and one 5-deck strong platter between them. I do not use an accumulator...i just use the spare varic trolley for backtention on the failsafes.

There are two more century machines in that building that I interlocked for kidshows this year. They are most certainly NOT sync motors. I have a 8 foot, 5-roller accumulator to compensate. You can always try couple of machines if you have a large accumulator such as this one to see what happens. Start with the trolley in the middle and see what happens. If you are gaining film start next time with the trolley all the way up...If you are losing, all the way down. I've done this with up to 2hr prints on those two "mismatched" machines with no problems.

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do: Last year a theatre (not one of mine)called and needed to interlock two machines that night (about 4 hours time). They had never interlocked, and did not have sync motors, selsyns, nothing. I took an accumulator and some rollers...set it up....BIG difference in speed between the two mcahines. Since it was only one show I solved the problem by creating another one...I loosed the belt on the faster machine until the accumulator trolley stopped moving! Worked great.

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Josh Jones
Redhat

Posts: 1207
From: Plano, TX
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 08-19-2002 01:08 AM      Profile for Josh Jones   Author's Homepage   Email Josh Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is a little off topic, but oh well,

I have a simplex sh1000 with a regular ol' induction motor. I have noticed thatr when referenced to the DVD, the film will gain ground, and the DVD falls behind. Does this mean that I have a machine that runs faster than 24 FPS or isnt the DVD a very stable frame rate to compare to? The DVD is in my computer.

Josh

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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug

Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 08-19-2002 01:47 AM      Profile for Phil Hill   Email Phil Hill       Edit/Delete Post 
An induction motor's speed will vary with the load and therefore is not constant. Most modern film projectors use an AC sync motor that holds a constant and stable speed within it's voltage, frequency, and torque rating. Some of these motors are driven directly from the (50 or 60 Hz) AC line, and some from variable speed controllers that vary the operating frequency to the sync motor to control the speed.

For a video signal to lock-up and display properly, the playback time-base must be a very accurate multiple of the recorded timebase. This allows normal as well as high-speed forward and reverse and still playback. Although the "picture" information is varied, the timebase is not.

Bottom Line: Your video image drifts relative to the film image because of the speed of the film projector not the video player.

>>> Phil


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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 08-19-2002 02:12 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So Wess, you are saying that you were able to get two projectors that had standard induction motors to run close enough so that you didn't need selsyn motors to force them to stay together, just the accumulator action was enought compensation? That's pretty impressive.

And Phil, are you saying that if a projector is outfitted with a synchronous motor, that would stay in perfect sync with a second projector, or a DVD player? Very impressive. Now would that be accurate enough for 3D?

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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug

Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 08-19-2002 02:47 AM      Profile for Phil Hill   Email Phil Hill       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank:
I'm not saying that at all. Even though a sync motor will stay "in-sync" at the operating speed, different motors will come up to speed at different rates because they usually operate in an induction mode for startup. Even if they did come up to speed together, it cannot be assumed that they would remain in sync. Variables due to minor differences in friction or other characteristics would allow the motors to drift and become noticed over a period of time. Mechanical variations between machines, all machines both film and video, is why there is a "control" track recorded on video tape and on other "to be sync'd" media.

Also, for 3D dual-projector applications the left-eye and the right-eye shutters must be in sync. Both open together for the polarized method or each shutter opposed for the LCD method. The only way to make sure both 3D projectors are in sync is to use some sort of feedback control like a selsyn or tachometer/servo drive.

And for the reasons mentioned, an unresolved film projector or audio tape player would not remain in sync with a DVD player or any un-sychronized source. Even "crystal-controlled", "wireless sync" devices will eventually run out of sync due to the (although minute)inaccuracies of their timebases.

>>> Phil


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