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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » TA-10 Motor-Start Problems (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: TA-10 Motor-Start Problems
Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 09-21-2002 06:21 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken, that was a mop.

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Ken McFall
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 615
From: Haringey, London.
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 09-21-2002 06:41 PM      Profile for Ken McFall   Email Ken McFall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
And how often does that mop find 'itself' on your head....

I'm not one to judge... everyone to their own

Short mops, long mops, flat mops, round mops.... quite a wardrobe you've got there Do you take any weenies with you on your nights out..... in case you get the munchies?


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-22-2002 10:40 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have run across solder on the socket that has caused problems on the motor relay socket before

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 09-22-2002 03:30 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gordon, what did the solder connection look like? Was it chunky, grainy, and greyish in color? That is a sign of an overheated connection. This can be caused by too high of a temperature of the soldering equipment, and possibility does exist the soldering equipment is dirty. This dirt and oxidation will transfer from the tip of the soldering equipment and burn into the solder and will prevent a good bond. Also, if the parts being soldered have not been cleaned, the possibility of either an overheated or a cold connection could occur. Naturally, we cannot forget about the current the connection is trying to handle.

Or, was it a bright shiney connection that did not appear to whet out properly? It has an appearance of the solder looking like a ball sitting on the connection. This is a cold solder joint. It happens when there was insufficient heat used for soldering and/or the flux did not flow properly, or the connection had residues of some sort preventing the flux from doing its job.

Or was the solder joint fractured, but otherwise looks OK. This could be a stress related factor that happens when there was insufficent solder used, and the connection mechanically cannot handle board flexing due to thermal stress or mechanical vibrations. These type connections can very easily break if excessive force is used to insert or remove relays.

A fractured connection can also occur if there is mechanical motion between the parts being soldered as the solder passes through the "plastic state." 60/40 solder has a 9-degree plastic state. The temperature range of the 60/40 solder's plastic state is 361 degrees F to 370 degrees F.

63/37 solder does not have a plastic state. it is either a solid or a liquid. If memory serves me correctly, the transition of 63/37 solder is 361 degrees F.

A good solder connection appears bright, and the contour of the solder is concave and free of stress lines caused by uneven heating during the soldering operation. The solder wetting should appear feathered out to all areas being soldered, with no evidence of ridges between the solder and the soldered parts.

If the solder connection is convex in appearence, it could be a cold solder connection or too much solder. It can be difficult to determine it is a cold connection on inspection, because if there was improper wetting underneath the surface of the solder, it could never be detected.

The old BGW-250 amplifiers had problems with fractured connections in their time-delay circuit. It was caused by insufficient solder and thermal stress.


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Ken McFall
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 615
From: Haringey, London.
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 09-22-2002 03:52 PM      Profile for Ken McFall   Email Ken McFall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow Paul....

It may be easier for him to send the board direct to you.... and I'll send mine as well

I'm constantly amazed at the expertise that's given so freely here... in a very materialistic world it's very unusual .

I rememeber an intermittent fault on a CP55 installed at my cinema that was eventually cured by sitting down at a bench with a hot iron and going over hundreds of connections..... an experience I hope never to have to repeat.... this could well be what'll have to happen in this case if it turns out not to be the socket.

At least the TA10 has fewer connections to consider....... it's not a job for the inexperienced.... come to think of it it's not a job the experienced want either


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 09-22-2002 04:05 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken, most of what I posted was from a NASA pamphlet that was in the military circles in the 1970's. It all about hand soldering techniques used on PC boards found in the space vehicles. Whether that pamphlet exists or not today, I don't know.

This book was our "Bible" when we had to work on PC boards used in Military Aviation. Hi-tech industries used the same specifications.


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Ken McFall
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 615
From: Haringey, London.
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 09-22-2002 04:24 PM      Profile for Ken McFall   Email Ken McFall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul you are a fountain of information....

Unfortunatly you are exactly what's missing in the industry today, people who not only know what they are talking about but have a love for the job. I've been doing this job for some 30 yaers now... boy, man and alcoholic Guy's like yourself give much more than advice..... you pass on experience.

It's not where the information came from it's knowing how to use the knowledge and being prepared to pass it on.... thanks.

Sounds like a suck up... but it's not. I've said before on this site it's important to be able to say "I don't know", I do it all the time... when no one's around of course!! The older guys have the best tips and the younger guys would do well to listen to them.... I hope I do.


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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 09-22-2002 05:30 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One of the big problems I find with wave-soldering is that their connections are truely dependent on the how well the wave machine is maintained and is run. The least reliable assemblies I've come across are wave-solder. The best are easy-bake (surface mount) and hand soldered. CP-55s and CP-65s and especially the Cat. 150E cards are hit and miss. The annoying thing is that they work for a period of time (years even) then just start to get flaky.

The first few pages of any Heathkit manual will also show good techniques to good soldering.

I like Kester 63/37 solder, my self. I only use 60/40 on fat connections (with fat solder).

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 09-22-2002 07:09 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve said:
quote:
"One of the big problems I find with wave-soldering is that their connections are truely dependent on the how well the wave machine is maintained and is run."

Steve, you are absolutely correct.

Here is a link that hopefully, all shoud be interested in.
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/solder.htm


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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 09-22-2002 07:21 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's been more than a few years since I worked on wave-soldered circuit boards for a "living". I agree that it's critical for the wave soldering machine be well-maintained and skillfully operated. And it's just as critical that the PC boards themselves be of high-quality and not contaminated. Poor-quality blank boards usually don't wave-solder very well no matter how good the w/s operator is or how well-maintained the machine is.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 09-22-2002 09:15 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here are some unacceptable solder connections, and what is wrong with them.

Fig 1 - Improper stripping of wire insulation.
Fig 2 - Birdcaged wire strands.
Fig 3 - Recessed solder.
Fig 4 - Part body (meniscus) in solder joint.
Fig 5 - Cold solder connection.
Fig 6 - Overheated solder connection.
Fig 7 - Fractured/disturbed solder connection.
Fig 8 - Poor wetting
Fig 9 - Blowhole.
Fig 10 - Rosin connection
Fig 11 - Dewetting
Fig 12 - Nonwetting.


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Don Olson
Film Handler

Posts: 20
From: Seattle WA
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 09-23-2002 12:23 PM      Profile for Don Olson   Author's Homepage   Email Don Olson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi:

Usually this problem is in the manual switch. The switch is wired in a different way than most manual switches. Enclosed is a schematic so you can see what I mean. Both NO and NC sides of the switch need to be healthy for the motor to work properly. The motor switch has a higher current rating than the other SPST switches used in the unit. If you swap be aware that the others are under rated for this application and will not be up to the task for very long.

I will post this reply on Film-tech also.
If this is not the cure please write.

Goodluck.
Don Olson
Component Engineering

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Ken McFall
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 615
From: Haringey, London.
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 09-23-2002 12:59 PM      Profile for Ken McFall   Email Ken McFall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for that Don.... I was not aware of any difference in the switches which is why I was a little concerned about its current handling ability.... In my case its not a problem as we switch the control line of the inverter... but now I know for the future.

As always it pays to ask the guys who know....

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Rick Long
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 759
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 09-23-2002 08:03 PM      Profile for Rick Long   Email Rick Long   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So if I understand correctly, the problem is with the n.c. side of the manual switch? Thanks Don, you saved me from disconnecting the board and "sweating" all joints around the motor relay.

Ken, I agree this site is invaluable in getting information that others might be tempted to selfeshly hold back. I think the greater good is served, however, in that by helping each other with solutions to various problems, we help the world to make sure that "movies (especially on film) are still your best entertainment."

P.S. Will get back to this theatre in the next day or so, and will post my results. Thanks again to all of you.


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Rick Long
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 759
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 09-24-2002 11:51 PM      Profile for Rick Long   Email Rick Long   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Installed a new motor switch this afternoon. No news means the thing is still running fine. Thanks again to Don & everyone who pitched in, as well as CE for a great product combined with great customer service.

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