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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1 2 3
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Author
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Topic: Amplifiers, Clipping and Damaged Drivers
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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 10-03-2002 10:10 PM
Thanks, Ken. I still have not found the correct name for the complex wave that contains an infinate number of odd and even harmonics. I asked an FCC certified field engineer that is old enough to have gone to school with Marconi, and he said the best way he could explain it is this: You will have one mell of a hess displayed on the oscilloscope..  So I guess it is not a back-to-back sawtooth...Oh, well....
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 10-25-2002 07:21 PM
The information in the RANE note (see John P.'s link on the first page is rather interesting.In fact, all of the "Rane Notes" are interesting and quite informative. If you haven't read them, you should! Steve ------------------ "Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 10-29-2002 03:36 PM
AFAIK, the buzz track original is from an "art work" master, then precision contact printed to make the film sold. I don't think it was made on a conventional sound (galvo) recorder. Steve Guttag or someone on the SMPTE A12 Committee may know more of the details. Today, a laser film recorder or pulsed LED array could be used, if modified to allow exposure in that area of the film.------------------ John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243 e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com Web site: here
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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted 10-30-2002 08:38 AM
I have to disagree with Michael on this point:"It has to be understood that analogue components do not simply go into hard clipping from a certain point onwards, but that the signal gets more and more distorted as this point is approached". This really depends on the design of the analog equipment. If you are talking about a CP200 (which was designed back in the late 1970's), yes this is true, but modern analogue equipment is quite different. For instance, the THD of a current QSC amplifier (or a Panastereo sound processor) falls until the point of clipping is REACHED, rather than APPROACHED. The problem with older equipment, relates to the method of gain control, rather than the absolute level of the input signal. Modern, high performance analog equipment will produce reducing distortion until the actual level of clipping is reached, and thence forth, (like digital) will severely clip. ------------------ Ray Derrick President/Chief Engineer Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935
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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted 10-30-2002 08:32 PM
Actually, to follow my own advice and be more accurate, I should say the level of THD+N falls until the point of clipping is reached. Harmonic distortion is what happens when a signal is clipped. The name comes from the fact that unwanted harmonics are added to the signal as a result the squaring of the waveform. When we measure harmonic distortion using conventional means, we often cannot differentiate between low level THD and noise, because the level of the harmonics can be below, or buried in, the noise floor. So we quote THD+N, meaning the total harmonic distortion plus noise.Once again to be more accurate, in modern analog equipment distortion stays pretty much constant up to the point of clipping, it is the noise level which falls compared with the signal level, so it is the combined THD+N figure that falls as the signal level rises. My reference to gain control methods is aimed at the once common use of VCA's (voltage controlled amplifiers) which have the characterisic of increasing distortion as the signal level rises. I hate those things! Now, regarding equaliser settings, I would agree wholeheartedly that a poorly setup system will increase the risk of distortion. However I would have considered the same problem to exist for analog equipment. So Michael I don't quite understand what you are getting at. BTW Michael your English is very good. If a dummy like me can understand you, then you are doing very well indeed.
------------------ Ray Derrick President/Chief Engineer Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935
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David Baum
Film Handler
Posts: 90
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 11-01-2002 03:51 AM
hi Very interesting topic. Clipping, overdriving etc is a good reason to speak about power requirements imho. If I may, I would like to refer to what JBLPRO recommends as far as what power is required to feed speakers, depending on the use. For instance, they say in their technical note called "SPEAKER POWER REQUIREMENT", quote: - for carefully monitored applications where peak transient capability must be maintained, a system should be powered with an amplifier capable of delivering twice its IEC rating." example: studio recording/production: 3db margin (because 2x IEC) is not dangerous since peak signals are generally very short in duration during recording/production and carefully controled. -for routine application where high continuous but non distorted, output is likely to be encountered: IEC rating. This is the bulk of sound reinforcement activities. Overdriving can occur often or go into feedback but the IEC rating (= use a 250w power amp for a speaker that has an IEC of 250watts), the "user is guaranteed of safe operation". -for musical instrument applications, where distorted (overdriven) output may be a musical requirement, the system should be powered with an amplifier capable of 1/2 the IEC of the speaker. in pratice, a 300w driven into clipping will produce 600watts. assuming the speaker IEC is 300watts, a 150watts amp into clipping will yield 300w, thus within the IEC rating of the speaeker.QUESTION: where cinema applications fit here ? category one , as in studio recording ? JBL itself if some of its cinema appl papers recommends amps with twice the IEC rating, for instance on the 5000 serie. For the subwoofers, they recommended 1xIEC and multiply the subwoofers to increase SPL pressure rather (doubling the nr of stacked subs yields about 4-6dB). also, the volume of the room is a direct influence on the power required and the number of speakers of course (especially subwoofers for instance). And power compression intervenes at some time also. I often read here that it's better to increase the number of subwoofers to reach those 105 or 115db SPL at 2/3 the distance rather than increasing the power feeding them. Also, equalizing which sometimes requires a boost at certain frequencies creates needs for more amp headroom and thus bigger amp or more use of bridging. David
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