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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Amplifiers, Clipping and Damaged Drivers (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: Amplifiers, Clipping and Damaged Drivers
Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 10-03-2002 10:10 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks, Ken.

I still have not found the correct name for the complex wave that contains an infinate number of odd and even harmonics. I asked an FCC certified field engineer that is old enough to have gone to school with Marconi, and he said the best way he could explain it is this:

You will have one mell of a hess displayed on the oscilloscope..

So I guess it is not a back-to-back sawtooth...Oh, well....


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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 10-03-2002 10:53 PM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A waweform which contains even and odd harmonics is a sawtooth. The level of each harmonic in the spectrum is 1/n where n is the ordinal (if that is the correct English term) of the harmonic.
If there are only odd harmonics, it is a square wave if the harmonics level falls by 1/n and a triangular wave if the level falls by 1/n2.
Of course I had to look that up myself!
Michael

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Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3686
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 10-25-2002 10:37 AM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
For those who have not seen a damaged HF diaphragm before, this one has seen one too many rocket launches ...


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 10-25-2002 03:07 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For those who have not found out the hard way:

When the driver diaphragm is changed, use a non-magnetic screwdriver. If not, that powerful magnet will displace the position of the screwdriver tip - and will punch a hole in your brand new one. Been there.....

In fact, I think you will see a caution statement on the flyer that comes with the diaphragm kit.

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 10-25-2002 07:13 PM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I too found out the hard way. There are also other dangers in repairing drivers. One time, we were replacing the HF driver of a JBL system which was of course attached to the horn and a colleague of mine was loosening the screws of the driver which towered above him (it was a system with twin cabinets on top of each other). I warned him that the driver was mostly solid metal and therefore much heavier (16kg) than it looked. He just had enough time to say "yaya, of course I know" when the driver came loose and hit him full in the face which was considerably flatter afterwards...


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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-25-2002 07:21 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The information in the RANE note (see John P.'s link on the first page is rather interesting.

In fact, all of the "Rane Notes" are interesting and quite informative. If you haven't read them, you should!

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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David Graham Rose
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 187
From: Cambridge, UK
Registered: Sep 2002


 - posted 10-29-2002 01:57 PM      Profile for David Graham Rose   Email David Graham Rose   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
While we are on the subject of waveforms, something has been puzzling me. Buzz Track has the trace of two square waves just outside the optical track area. Surely it is impossible for a sound camera to reproduce a perfectly square wave, since the unexposed film is travelling at a linear speed and the strings in the light valves will not move 'instantly' from 0 displacement to the necessary modulation. In my opinion, the only way to reproduce a true square wave, is by means of some highly accurate art work being photographed. Any other thoughts on the matter?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 10-29-2002 03:36 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
AFAIK, the buzz track original is from an "art work" master, then precision contact printed to make the film sold. I don't think it was made on a conventional sound (galvo) recorder. Steve Guttag or someone on the SMPTE A12 Committee may know more of the details. Today, a laser film recorder or pulsed LED array could be used, if modified to allow exposure in that area of the film.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: here


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Christopher Seo
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 530
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-29-2002 08:06 PM      Profile for Christopher Seo   Email Christopher Seo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The most recent Buzz Track says it was photographed in a pin-registered camera. Is this a new method? I also recall the older "artwork" looking different.

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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-30-2002 08:38 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have to disagree with Michael on this point:

"It has to be understood that analogue components do not simply go into hard clipping from a certain point onwards, but that the signal gets more and more distorted as this point is approached".

This really depends on the design of the analog equipment. If you are talking about a CP200 (which was designed back in the late 1970's), yes this is true, but modern analogue equipment is quite different.

For instance, the THD of a current QSC amplifier (or a Panastereo sound processor) falls until the point of clipping is REACHED, rather than APPROACHED. The problem with older equipment, relates to the method of gain control, rather than the absolute level of the input signal.

Modern, high performance analog equipment will produce reducing distortion until the actual level of clipping is reached, and thence forth, (like digital) will severely clip.


------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935


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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 10-30-2002 11:40 AM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you Ray! I am glad somebody finally responded to my post. I thought that nobody had read it because it is too long or maybe too cumbersomely worded to read. It is not so easy to explain complex subjects in a foreign language, and I thought that it may not have come across what I meant. The subject is rather important to me, because I found that a lot of the problems you have with cinema sound systems come from bad installation and alignment, and from equipment driven at the very edge of its capacity.
What does THD stand for?
I agree that good modern equipment displays the characteristics you described, but I think there is a lot of less than high-end equipment in the field!
Perhaps you could elaborate a little on what you mean by the method of gain control? In my post I wrote about the mistakes that are sometimes made in equalising systems and which result in problems in the gain structure of digital processors. It would be nice to have some critical feedback on those thoughts.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-30-2002 07:20 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
THD is total harmonic distortion

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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-30-2002 08:32 PM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually, to follow my own advice and be more accurate, I should say the level of THD+N falls until the point of clipping is reached. Harmonic distortion is what happens when a signal is clipped. The name comes from the fact that unwanted harmonics are added to the signal as a result the squaring of the waveform. When we measure harmonic distortion using conventional means, we often cannot differentiate between low level THD and noise, because the level of the harmonics can be below, or buried in, the noise floor. So we quote THD+N, meaning the total harmonic distortion plus noise.

Once again to be more accurate, in modern analog equipment distortion stays pretty much constant up to the point of clipping, it is the noise level which falls compared with the signal level, so it is the combined THD+N figure that falls as the signal level rises.

My reference to gain control methods is aimed at the once common use of VCA's (voltage controlled amplifiers) which have the characterisic of increasing distortion as the signal level rises. I hate those things!

Now, regarding equaliser settings, I would agree wholeheartedly that a poorly setup system will increase the risk of distortion. However I would have considered the same problem to exist for analog equipment. So Michael I don't quite understand what you are getting at.

BTW Michael your English is very good. If a dummy like me can understand you, then you are doing very well indeed.


------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935


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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 10-31-2002 02:35 PM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don`t quite recall myself what I was getting at... Seriously, I didn`t mean to make a general comparison between analogue and digital equipment. The reason I kept referring to digital processors is simply that most units in use in the cinema today are digital processors.
The point I was trying to make is, in answer to Manny`s original question, yes, clipping is not nice and can damage equipment. That much had already been said in the earlier posts. I wanted to elaborate on the fact that clipping is not just a technical problem, but that it also sounds bad and that a lot of the systems in action today operate at the very edge of their capabilities when playing digital tracks and that they are also very often underdimensioned (if such a word exists in English). And most importantly, that the general impression that movies are too loud is caused by too weak equipment and bad alignment which result in heavily distorted sound. And that distorted sound is perceived as much louder as undistorted sound at the same playback level.

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David Baum
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 11-01-2002 03:51 AM      Profile for David Baum     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
hi
Very interesting topic. Clipping, overdriving etc is a good reason to speak about power requirements imho.
If I may, I would like to refer to what JBLPRO recommends as far as what power is required to feed speakers, depending on the use.
For instance, they say in their technical note called "SPEAKER POWER REQUIREMENT", quote:
- for carefully monitored applications where peak transient capability must be maintained, a system should be powered with an amplifier capable of delivering twice its IEC rating."
example: studio recording/production: 3db margin (because 2x IEC) is not dangerous since peak signals are generally very short in duration during recording/production and carefully controled.
-for routine application where high continuous but non distorted, output is likely to be encountered: IEC rating.
This is the bulk of sound reinforcement activities. Overdriving can occur often or go into feedback but the IEC rating (= use a 250w power amp for a speaker that has an IEC of 250watts), the "user is guaranteed of safe operation".
-for musical instrument applications, where distorted (overdriven) output may be a musical requirement, the system should be powered with an amplifier capable of 1/2 the IEC of the speaker.
in pratice, a 300w driven into clipping will produce 600watts. assuming the speaker IEC is 300watts, a 150watts amp into clipping will yield 300w, thus within the IEC rating of the speaeker.

QUESTION: where cinema applications fit here ? category one , as in studio recording ?

JBL itself if some of its cinema appl papers recommends amps with twice the IEC rating, for instance on the 5000 serie. For the subwoofers, they recommended 1xIEC and multiply the subwoofers to increase SPL pressure rather (doubling the nr of stacked subs yields about 4-6dB).
also, the volume of the room is a direct influence on the power required and the number of speakers of course (especially subwoofers for instance). And power compression intervenes at some time also.
I often read here that it's better to increase the number of subwoofers to reach those 105 or 115db SPL at 2/3 the distance rather than increasing the power feeding them.
Also, equalizing which sometimes requires a boost at certain frequencies creates needs for more amp headroom and thus bigger amp or more use of bridging.
David


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