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Author Topic: Projectors that put electricity back into the grid
Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 10-07-2002 07:47 AM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How can you put electricity 'back into the grid'? Isn't there phasing to take into consideration?

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Better Projection Pays!

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Mark J. Marshall
Film God

Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 10-07-2002 08:27 AM      Profile for Mark J. Marshall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is a company offering a 1 million dollar prize to the person who produces a working over unity device.

--> http://www.seaspower.com

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 10-07-2002 01:09 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, you can put electricity back into the grid and yes you must be in phase. If your voltage is higher than the grid (or you lead a tiny bit in phase) power will flow back out. Let me modify that to refer to the EMF that *would* produce a higher voltage when not online since obviously while connected your voltage would be the same as the grid.
If you tie it all together and your generator or sine wave inverter doesn't go up in smoke as you produce more and more power your meter will start to go slower and slower as you cover more of your own load. When you generate more than you're using and start exporting it to the grid the meter will begin to revolve in reverse (if a conventional disk motor meter and not physically prevented from doing so). This is not cheating the power company as it represents power you are selling them.

I think in the USA Federal law requires the utility to accept power from wind and solar generation and possibly (not sure) from co-generation systems. But they are not required to pay you retail rates for it which is what happens when the meter goes backwards. They'd install other metering for this purpose and give you wholesale rate credit.

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 10-07-2002 06:59 PM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>:/ You've got to be kidding me! Really?


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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 10-07-2002 09:56 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here is a completely trivial case of a coasting projector generating a wee bit of power. This is how I have my projector motors wired, as I've previously described, with two switches. The wall switch will feed the motor and the Dolby Digital motor start relay; the base switch does not so the motor can be run with no concern of triggering the delayed DD switchover.

If you run the motor via the base switch (wall switch off) and then switch back to the normal position, the coasting motor will generate sufficient voltage to backfeed and lift the relay. This is seen by looking at the CP500D, which will sit in DD even with nothing running and only default to SR when it gets a contact closure on one or the other motor relays. Motoring at more than a low speed and as you switch off you see the CP switch briefly into SR then back to DD.


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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-08-2002 03:41 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is a bill before Congress this session that will DEREGULATE the electrical power industry; if it passes, you can kiss selling electricity or anything else back to them goodbye, either at retail OR wholesale prices.

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Jeffry L. Johnson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 809
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 10-08-2002 05:14 PM      Profile for Jeffry L. Johnson   Author's Homepage   Email Jeffry L. Johnson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The courts are deciding the fate of net metering in Ohio.

Incentives in Ohio

Database of State Incentives for Renewable Energy (DSIRE)

Net Metering

Last DSIRE Review: 07/18/2002  

Incentive Type:  Net Metering Rules
Eligible Technologies:   Solar Thermal Electric, Photovoltaics, Landfill Gas, Wind, Biomass , Hydro, Renewable Transportation Fuels, Fuel Cells, micro turbines
Applicable Sectors:   Commercial, Industrial, Residential
Limit on System Size:  no limit
Limit on Overall Enrollment:  1% of peak demand for each retail electric provider
Treatment of Net Excess:  New rules pending. See summary for details.
Utilities Involved:  Investor-owned utilities only
Date Enacted:  1999
Authority 1:   Ohio Revised Code 4928.67 (SB 3)
Authority 2:   Case No. 01-0573

Summary:

Enacted in 1999 by the State General Assembly as part of an electric utility restructuring bill, Ohio's net metering rule requires investor-owned utilities to offer a net metering option to customer-generators who own qualifying systems. Qualifying systems include wind, solar, biomass, landfill gas, hydropower, fuel cells and microturbines and must be intended primarily to offset part or all of the customer-generator's requirements for electricity. There is no cap on system size but the total installed capacity is limited to 0.1% of each utility's in state customer peak demand.  
 
When the rule was enacted, the Public Utilities Commission of Ohio ordered utilities to purchase excess generation from their customers at a full retail rate. However, in June 2002, the Ohio Supreme Court ruled in favor of the utilities that this exchange was unreasonable and illegal, in Case No. 01-0573. While it is not yet decided how excess generation will be handled under this new ruling, it is likely that the utility will purchase excess generation from the customer at avoided cost, or that it will be credited to the following month for a period of up to three months.  
 
Net metering system must meet safety standards of the National Electrical Code, the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, and Underwriters Laboratories. Utilities cannot require the customer-generator to comply with any further safety and performance standards.

Contact:
Kurt Waltzer
Ohio Environmental Council

Columbus, OH
Phone: (614) 487-7506
E-Mail: kurt@theoec.org

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Bill Enos
Film God

Posts: 2081
From: Richmond, Virginia, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 10-09-2002 05:42 PM      Profile for Bill Enos   Email Bill Enos   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No less practical than all this would be a collection syatem in the seats to collect gas from farts and pump it into the gas main serving the heating plant.

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Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Film God

Posts: 3977
From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from)
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 10-09-2002 06:15 PM      Profile for Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Author's Homepage   Email Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One more reason why you should sell salsa with your nachos!

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Craig Hanham
Film Handler

Posts: 79
From: Wellington, New Zealand
Registered: Oct 2001


 - posted 10-09-2002 06:33 PM      Profile for Craig Hanham   Email Craig Hanham   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As for selling power back to the company as mentioned above when you produce more than you are using the meter runs backwards, meaning a lower consumption rate over time. There are a few housholds in this country that do this with wind and solar cell generation. At night when the batteries are charged, surplus goes back to the grid.
It has required a bit of specil wiring and a meter change.
The power is not sold back to the utility, per se, but there is a huge reduction in the households bill.
As for using a projector for re-gen, forget it, as above conservation of energy.
The only way it can work is for motor vehicles, and more spectacularly trains.
Consider the case of an electric train travelling downhill. Lots of tonnage braking = kinetic generator.
I have seen an electric train dead heading a loco as it can provide back to the grid 15-20% of the power used in moving the train as a whole on flat ground.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 10-09-2002 09:11 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ah ha...a train analogy that didn't start with me.

Yes, depending on the electrification system and the type of equipment on the locomotive some use regenerative braking to slow or hold speed in check on downgrades without the use of regular brakes. The train going down the hill can quite literally help the train going up the hill by feeding power back to the catenary.

Otherwise they typically have dynamic braking where the energy is burned up as heat in resistance grids. This is also a common feature on most but not all diesel locomotives. Most diesels use an electric transmission (engine drives generator; traction motors turn wheels) so this comes quite naturally with only a bit of added equipment although some flatland lines do without to avoid the expense.

I believe the Acela train can feed dynamic braking-produced power into its DC link (the bus between the rectifiers and the AC traction motor inverters) as this bus also feeds the HEP ("hotel" power for the cars) inverter. Thus, free HVAC and lights aboard the train while coasting! IIRC it goes into dynamic automatically as it coasts across phase breaks (gaps in the overhead catenary) so there's no interruption in HEP and the lights don't go out in the cars.


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