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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Buying Dolby SR chips (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Buying Dolby SR chips
Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 10-12-2002 03:02 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gordon, I didn't follow those that closely since I really didn't have to know that information. Now I know...


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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-13-2002 03:47 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry to reiterate, Gordy and Josh. I didn't see the other thread in which this topic was being discussed before I made my post. Josh obviously already knew all about the S chips.


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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 10-13-2002 10:49 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That comes as a surprise to me. I knew it was a compromised SR but I had no idea it was really just a couple of S chips in tandem.

Is the "A" part of the 222SR/A legitimate?

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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-14-2002 03:49 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve, I believe the circuit for A-type section of the 222SR/A is the same as in the standard 222 card. We've never run tests on the A part of a 222SR/A, but I do know that the critical elements of the A-type process (the dual matched FETs in the compressor circuits) are still there, so I would be confident in saying that the A part is "legit".

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Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935


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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 10-14-2002 07:17 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Seems to me that they ought to be able squeeze two real SR circuits onto a single card by now, even if it was once impossible. But how to offer an updated card without admitting to what a scam the original was? How much longer to go on the SR patents and someone else can offer an alternative that is true SR?

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-14-2002 08:43 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Rays SR actually sounds better than the original

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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-15-2002 02:35 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh come on Gordy! I do appreciate the compliment but "sounds exactly the same" would be more accurate and is possibly what most people would prefer to hear. We came up with a process that decodes SR very precisely without infringing Dolby's patents (which are almost extinct anyway). Our process now carries a US patent of it's own because it uses some original concepts. Mind you Dolby did try to sue our USA based sister company over our first attempt at SR which admittedly came awful close to infringement (not deliberately I might add), but fortunately for all concerned that was sorted out before it got to court.

But as a result of all the work we had to do in building a case to defend our position, I came up with a much better way to achieve the same decoding algorithm as a Cat280 using a somewhat different technique. The result is the CM353 card which is used in Panastereo processors and is now also available in a separate adapter for upgrading older processors that do not have SR.

Now I have a policy of not plugging my own products on this Forum, as I don't believe it is an appropriate place to do commercials - and I just blew it! Sorry folks, it won't happen again. Gordy it's all your fault, you must learn to be more accurate!

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Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935


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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-15-2002 02:49 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK, now what is the word on Smart's CopyCat 280 card? I have heard conflicting assesments -- some say it mimics SR with no audible difference, but I also heard one tech say it mistracks. You certainly have to give them a A+ for chutszpa for the name. And didn't Dolby go to court over it?


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Oscar Neundorfer
Master Film Handler

Posts: 275
From: Senoia, GA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 10-15-2002 06:51 AM      Profile for Oscar Neundorfer   Author's Homepage   Email Oscar Neundorfer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank,

The SMART CopyCat 280 card has never been the subject of a court case and has never been challenged by Dolby. We have never claimed that it is a true SR card. Our claim is that it is a SR Emulation card. By that, we mean that it closely mimics the action of a true SR card for MOST situations, but not all.

We did an AB test one time at ShoWest where we took a soundtrack of a movie from a laserdisk, ran it through a Dolby SR encoder, Model 363 with Cat 300 SR cards, and then decoded the encoded signals with the real Dolby CAT 280 cards and the SMART CopyCat cards. The decoded outputs of each set of cards as well as the original unencoded source material directly from the laserdisk player could be selected with a switch and fed to headphones. Probably about 100 people listened and switched back and forth. Only about 5 out of the 100 could consistently tell which was which, and then only in certain parts of the movie where the decoding of the CopyCat cards did not track properly. I do not claim ANY scientific validity for the test, but its results were such that I believe our SR emulation circuit is definitely good enough for most people.

Our circuitry is extremely simple, and as such, it will not decode every soundtrack situation properly. However, the worst thing I hear is at times, there will be a slightly higher amount of high frequency material due to the bandsplitting arrangement we use where mid-band material will open up the signal path for the higher frequencies also. Sometimes this manifests itself as a slightly higher level of hiss. The other thing I sometimes hear is a low frequency level alteration due to the way the very low frequencies are handled. However this is manifest as a slight raising of very low frequencies at lower levels which is somewhat like a loudness effect on a home stereo, so it does not really sound bad.

Now for the purists out there, I am sure you want nothing but the true SR noise reduction, and I have no argument with you. And you can get that with the Cat 280 cards, the Cat 300 cards, etc. Or you can use the new patented Panastereo CM353 SR cards and also get the real thing. The CM353 is a real work of art. We at SMART and, I am certain, Ray Derrick, the designer, will put it up against any thing out there.

As for the name "CopyCat", I always thought that was rather cute. I did not come up with it, my boss did.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-15-2002 09:54 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually Ray it wasn't intended as a compliment just a fact. Your new card is far cleaner sounding Actually there is a fair bit of realestate on that board so why not build us a combo A/SR card that could be a replacement for the 222SRA cards in 65's 500's and the only option in the CP45's
Did a US patent search and couldn't find it what is the number


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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-16-2002 08:49 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There's a fair bit of real estate but there's not much VACANT real estate. It would be a real squeeze, even using surface mount components, to get both SR and A type on that one board. Also you may have noticed the CM353 is the same height and pinouts as a Cat280 but is somewhat longer than Dolby's cards, so it would take a lot of imagination to fit one into a Dolby processor. Besides I don't think Dolby would take too kindly to one of our cards adorning one of their processors. I think it would be like rubbing salt into a wound.

The Cat222SR/A with it's SR shorcuts was obviously developed by Dolby so they could fit SR into a CP65 chassis. There is no way in a month of Sundays they could have squeezed the circuitry on even one, let alone two Cat280s onto just one little piggy back pcb for the Cat222. I would say they had no choice.

We only received notification that our patent had been granted a few weeks ago so we are still waiting for the formal documentation to arrive from the US patent office. I will send you an e-mail when we get the number. We do have the App. number but that is of no use to you.

BTW sorry that I misunderstood your non-compliment remark.

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Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-16-2002 09:20 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Could it not be a piggy back design using surface mount technology it sshould not be that difficult

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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-16-2002 04:07 PM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Shouldn't be that difficult? How many high density pcbs have you designed Gordy? It may be worth a look, but are there enough folk out there interested in improving the sound of their Dolby processor to warrant me (or Scott) spending countless hours slaving over a hot computer keyboard? After all they settled for a Dolby because they didn't want the best

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Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-16-2002 04:14 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just pulling your chain Actually a 4 layer +ground and power plane board is the worst night mare of design I have delt with and it wasn't surface mount either and it was done with Protel software from australia no less
I don't know how well it would sell but a lot of people are doing the 222sr/a upgrade to cp55's now days so it might be a nitch market


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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-17-2002 05:05 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oscar,

Thanks for the information; actually I asked because I wanted to get some feedback from the knowledgeable folks here -- I have a pair for our CP50 and my experience has been that they sound just fine. My room is very large -- 2500 seats -- so it is very difficulty to hear minute differences in things like hiss or low-end emphasis. All I know is they sound silky smooth and very natural. Plus, I have no Dolby cards to do any kind of precise A/B tests. To my ears, and happily to my audience, our theatre sound is very impressive. Besides, even if we had the Cat 280 cards, audio band compression and expansion tracking are not easily tested with common test equipment.


Actually if you consider the minimal amount of anomalies that the CopyCat might produce, and the very limited conditions of audio content when it would even become audible (I've never heard any), the price differential is like manna from heaven -- enough to make many an art house or non-profit which ALWAYS must live right on the edge of the ledger line between the black and the red. The CopyCat is very attractive.


I don't know where I heard that rumor about a patent court case between Dolby and Smart -- probably just more of my brain cells dying.

Frank

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