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Author Topic: Making movie theatre images "camcorder-proof"
Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 10-12-2002 07:19 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What other than piracy would be the point of a 24P camera if it only outputs regular NTSC? The only legit purpose for 24P would be someone wanting to make a "movie" with it; I suppose the conversion process would produce some of the artifacts people associate with the "film look." According to the brochure the tapes are all regular NTSC; if you want 24P endresults you need editing software to undo the conversion. If on the other hand they want to create a pirate's toy they could have it detect images flickering at approx 48Hz and adjust their scan rate to match.

Good point about 25 fps on the pirate video although given the English track it might have originated stateside all the same. When I've played with transferring 16mm using a 1-tube stripe filter camera flicker was present but only faintly. What results did people get with that device with the mirror and the tiny rear projection screen?


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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-12-2002 10:48 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
The "film look" is precisely why people are flocking to this camera. Within a few years, this will become a standard item on all reasonably decent cameras. 60i video looks really amateurish. 30P (like from the XL1) looks much better, but it still looks videoish. This cheezy look can be helped with good lighting, but until the motion looks like film transferred to video, anything shot at 30P or especially 60i will always look like a home video.

Getting back to the point of this thread though, if someone actually wants to "videotape the screen" at a cinema to make themselves a bootleg, just head on down to your local DLP cinema with any camcorder, point and shoot. You'll walk away with one hell of a damned nice copy. DLP is pirate-friendly. Just another reason to do away with it.


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Thomas Procyk
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1842
From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 10-13-2002 01:14 PM      Profile for Thomas Procyk   Email Thomas Procyk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's an article along the same lines from yesterday:

-------
Industry Urges Students on Piracy
Saturday October 12 1:33 PM ET


SAN FRANCISCO (AP) Film and recording industry advocates are appealing to universities nationwide to help crack down on Internet-based piracy, which costs the entertainment world billions of dollars in lost revenues every year.

In a letter sent to more than 2,300 colleges, entertainment industry leaders called on the universities to educate students against pirating music and movies over broadband Internet lines available on most campuses.

"We're simply trying to appeal to the universities for their help in making students aware of Internet theft," Jack Valenti, the president and CEO of the Motion Picture Association of America, said Friday. Valenti was one of four signatories on the letter.

"Students need to know that just because everyone is doing it doesn't make it right," he added.

In addition to educating students that piracy is tantamount to "electronic shoplifting," the industry trade groups called on the universities to implement penalties on violators.

Most universities offer high-speed Internet connections in dorm rooms and computer labs, which some students use illegally to share or swap MP3 files and some film files. Peer-to-peer technology now allows computer users to tap into one another's hard drives and share files.

Using 56K, or dial-up connections, films can take up to 12 hours to download, Valenti said. By comparison, high-speed connections allow feature films to be downloaded to a computer in minutes.

Universities have been targeted because they are a common source of high-speed connections in the United States, where only 13 million homes have high-speed Internet access.

The exchange of copyrighted files is not only a violation of federal law, it consumes valuable academic resources, the letter signatories said.

"Stealing is stealing is stealing, whether it's done with sleight of hand by sticking something in a pocket or it's done with the click of a mouse," the letter's authors said.

Ever since the music-swapping software Napster emerged in the late 1990s, students have been using enormous swaths of university bandwidth intended for the exchange of research data and other academic-oriented files.

Quoting the Chronicle of Higher Education, the letter's authors said one university discovered that at least 75 percent of its available bandwidth had been used by students and people outside the university while exchanging files using peer-to-peer technology.

Songwriters Guild of America President Rick Carnes warned that copyright violations threaten the future of the recording arts in the United States.

"Copyright encourages the promotion of new arts in our culture," said Carnes, who has written songs for Garth Brooks and Reba McEntire. "Without those copyright protections, the future of the arts is threatened."

The letter also was signed by Hilary Rosen and Edward Murphy, the presidents, respectively, of the Recording Industry Association of America and the National Music Publishers' Association.
-------

Here are my questions/corrections:

Internet piracy is a relatively new thing, no more than about five years old. If I am not mistaken, the Motion Picture Industry had a record box office year last year, and is on-track for another one this year. Where are these "billions of dollars" lost? Certainly not in the home video market as DVDs are flying off the shelves...

quote:
which some students use illegally to share or swap MP3 files

This statement makes it sound that ALL MP3s are illegal. And our university has taken exactly that approach. If you transfer an MP3 file over the University's network, even if it's your own grandma singing some song she made up while drunk, your account will be suspended.

quote:
By comparison, high-speed connections allow feature films to be downloaded to a computer in minutes.

Incorrect. Any video file, no matter how much you compress it, (unless it's at a postage-stamp resolution) will exceed 150mb for about a half hour of footage. That sized file would take a little over an hour to download on a high-speed connection. (Unless you have a dedicated high speed connection, not sharing it over hundreds of computers like most colleges do.) The only exception would be the RealVideo format, but who wants to watch a feature film in THAT?!?

quote:
"Copyright encourages the promotion of new arts in our culture,"

Just the opposite. And I believe this was discussed in another thread so I won't go into it now. Maybe that's why these corporations are screaming that the 20-year extension on copyrights not be overturned. Disney still wants their $0.62 every time a clip of "Steamboat Willie" is shown on TV.

I wonder exactly how the Universities will "educate" students on the horrors of internet file-swapping. Hopefully not the same way that Jr. High Schools educate kids in sex. "See how much fun it can be? Now don't do it!"

=TMP=

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Dave Williams
Wet nipple scene

Posts: 1836
From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 10-13-2002 02:23 PM      Profile for Dave Williams   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Williams   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I once caught a guy setting up a video camera on a tripod during the opening previews. He was the only person in the showing, on a late sunday. I let it go for about half an hour, then changed the sound over to a cd of metallica. The movie was Perfect Storm.

After about ten minutes, he packed up and left. Of course only to be pulled over by the police that were waiting for him.

Dave

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 10-13-2002 06:24 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Egad...what an idiot! He must have been pretty stupid to think he could be so blatant. The MPAA ought to distribute a trailer offering money or passes to anyone who notices someone taping and brings it to the attention of theatre staff. Of course that won't stop "inside" jobs but if Cap Code traces a bootleg to a specific venue and investigators start interviewing the entire staff it would sure put the fear of God into most people.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 10-13-2002 10:19 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I wonder if it is possible to put some kind of sequential serial number or specific watermark on DVD screener discs --y'know, something that might be permanently stuck in the MPEG-2 video stream that is impossible to erase. The press people need to be just as accountable as John Q. Public on film piracy.

On the 24P thing, applications like Cinema Tools for Final Cut Pro can handle 24P, full HDTV level bitstreams and lots of other cool stuff. FCP, DVD Studio Pro and Cinema Tools for FCP are really the only things that have me wanting to buy a Mac. Apple has a killer app in FCP.

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John Moriarty
Film Handler

Posts: 50
From: Cambridge, UK
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 10-14-2002 03:06 AM      Profile for John Moriarty   Email John Moriarty   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bobby said:
quote:
I wonder if it is possible to put some kind of sequential serial number or specific watermark on DVD screener discs

It is possible, but there are a number of limitations. Obviously, if the disk is indivually marked in some way then it will have to individually cut/pressed, which could increase costs. Unfortuneately recordable DVD formats (that are compatible with home DVD players) have a lower capacity limit than standard DVDs, and some films may have to be spread accross more than one disk (esp. if higher quality soundtracks are to be used).

The second problem is that the video files are often (substantially) further compressed for distribution on the internet, and so any marking system will have to be resistant to this level of modification.

John

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 10-14-2002 03:49 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You can get about an hour of 8.0mbps (720x526 PAL at 25fps) in DVD video format (i.e. playable on a set-top machine) onto a single 4.7gb DVD-R disc. By reducing the bit rate you can increase available running time, but IMHO anything over 80 minutes on a disc starts to look pixellated and generally nasty.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-14-2002 07:33 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In multiplex where I fill in occasionally, there are two booths; in the "main" booth, there is a small B&W monitor, connected to two security cameras pointed at the screens serviced by the smaller booth. The idea is to provide a quick way to check on picture and framing when shows start in the other booth by automatic timers. Anyway, the security cameras are old tube models and the "look" of the picture on the monitor is interesting. It does flicker, but much less noticeably than it would if CCD cameras were used, due to the "lag" of the tube cameras. On the other hand, the actual picture quality is absolutely horrible (probably a result of the age of the cameras and monitor) and it is all but impossible to see what is actually going on in the onscreen images. I've used CCD cameras to record projected 16mm images (nothing copyrighted; just home movies and such) and the flicker is very annoying (this is using a machine with a 3-bladed shutter).

I don't know about the consumer 24P camera, but the Sony HDCAM model does record at 24P natively and the playback deck can output at 24P. We had this equipment at a film festival where I helped out recently and we really should have tried recording a filmed image (with the permission of the filmmaker, of course) if someone had thought about it.


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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-15-2002 03:44 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's an interesting concept -- video cameras watching the various screens in a multiplex. They idea could be extended to watching the audience as well.

We found that old vidicon tube cameras were infrared sensitive - if you flooded the area with infrared light, the cameras would "see" a perfectly lit picture, even in the dark. This became invaluable for the stage manager of live stage shows where props and actors needed to be in place on the stage before the curtain could go up. With a few infrared lamps lighting the stage, even in a blackout (of white light), the stage manager could see a stage that looked fully "lit' on the monitor and could check places before he called "curtain go."

This same principle could be used to watch audiences and check for the camcorder pirates. It also wouldn't hurt to use it to keep an eye out for roudy patrons as well. Disruptive patrons is one of the top reasons given why people, especially the older age groups, would rather wait to see pictures at home.

Frank

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Thomas Procyk
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1842
From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 10-15-2002 12:31 PM      Profile for Thomas Procyk   Email Thomas Procyk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bobby:
quote:
I wonder if it is possible to put some kind of sequential serial number or specific watermark on DVD screener discs

I thought they already did this with screener VHS tapes. My friend was a manager at a video store, and whenever they recieved screener tapes, every 15 minutes or so a message would scroll at the bottom, ("...if you have rented or purchased this cassette, please call 1-800-NO-COPYS...") and afterwards a 4 to 6 digit number would appear in the upper-right corner of the screen for a while.

=TMP=

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 04-20-2003 11:50 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's something from the Local Seattle Rag that might prove interesting.

Hollywood comes up with a high-tech way to foil movie pirates

By GARY GENTILE
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

LOS ANGELES -- Hollywood sends enforcers with night-vision goggles into movie theaters and puts metal detectors outside advance screening rooms, but still the industry can't stop pirates from recording films and selling illegal copies before their theatrical debuts.

The problem is that the pirates are adopting ever more sophisticated technology, using tiny camcorders in purses and digital recorders about the size of a fountain pen.

Some hand-held computers "have an attachment that can record up to 122 minutes," said Jeffrey Godsick, executive vice president of marketing at 20th Century Fox. "Well, that's a whole movie in many cases. You can take the attachment and run it through a small hole in a tie or a shirt."

This is big business. The Motion Picture Association of America estimates that studios lose more than $3 billion a year from piracy in various forms. So the movie industry is trying to fight back with a high-tech solution of its own.

Cinea LLC, which created an encryption system for DVDs, and Sarnoff, a technology research firm, are developing a system to modulate the light cast on a movie screen to create a flicker or other patterns that would be picked up by recording devices, making the resulting images unwatchable. The disruptive flickers would be unseen by the human eye in the movie theater.

The "forensic watermark" system is designed to be used with digital projectors, which show movies stored on computer discs rather than traditional 35mm film. Only a few theaters have digital projectors, although most are expected to go digital by the end of the decade.

The research is funded by a $2 million grant from the Advanced Technology Program of the National Institute of Standards and Technology, a government agency.

The technology takes advantage of the fact that the human eye and camcorders see the world differently. For example, a computer screen constantly refreshes an image, creating bars that travel across the screen. A camcorder picks up those bars, but not the naked eye.

Researchers are mindful that creating too rapid a flicker could trigger seizures in some people. They also discovered that using the flicker to write words across the image, such as "Copy," is not disruptive enough.

"It turns out that text isn't that annoying," said Robert Schumann, Cinea's chief executive. "Also, if it's just a static image, it's easier for the pirates to take out."

This technology would be a major improvement over the industry's current measures of trying to block pirate recorders, including night-vision goggles and metal detectors. Some of the piracy is an inside job: A pirate bribes a projectionist to set up a tripod in the projection booth.

"It is a system that will not stop camcording," said Ken Jacobsen, director of worldwide anti-piracy operations for the Motion Picture Association of America. "The best we can do is try to keep it out of the marketplace before a full domestic release."

Still, the industry knows that whatever technological gains are made over pirates will eventually be thwarted, requiring even more sophisticated countermeasures.

"There is a lot of money in piracy," Jacobsen said, "so it is worth people's efforts to try and defeat security."

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