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Author Topic: Schinler's List Red Girl Scene Joe Beres Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 606 From: Minneapolis, MN, USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 12-18-2002 09:42 AM                     I remember seeing a B&W print of Schindler's List when it was first released. For those of you that saw the color prints, do you remember any color shift reel to reel Similar to those on the color prints of The Man Who Wasn't There?  |  IP: Logged Thomas Procyk Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1842 From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-18-2002 09:53 AM                     I remember when "Pleasantville" came out, there was a note in the cans to not mix-and-match reels from other prints (if your theater received two prints, for example) because they were selected specially so that there is minimal color shift in the b/w scenes. I noticed some reels had those little round colored stickers on the heads. One reel had a red one, one had a green one, and one had a green and a blue one. When we ran the print, that's exactly how the colors shifted, as indicated by the stickers. Which gets me confused. You'd think they'd try to use all "red" reels or all "blue" reels for the whole print. =TMP=  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 12-18-2002 04:22 PM                     Ian remembers this one correctly. Initial prints were hot spliced together between B&W and color stock and most theters screamed bloody murder about the shedding. A few weeks into the run, all further prints were on color stock and did have an annoying blue tint to the B&W sequences. All Schindler's List prints were triacetate. Bobby, Northpark's print was B&W/color mix. It was print #8 and arrived used from some other theater from a screening. I remember we were not particularly impressed with the film handling damage at the reel changes, but Universal would not replace it for some reason. I guess those prints were extra expensive due to the splicing.  |  IP: Logged Jeff Joseph Expert Film Handler Posts: 131 From: Palmdale, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2000 posted 12-21-2002 02:17 AM                        After it became apparent that there was a problem with shedding on the black and white prints of this title and also "Ed Wood", the late Tom Ogburn of Benke Filmtex coated the prints of both titles with TomaCote. This helped eliminate the shedding and focus issues on both features. Jeff Joseph SabuCat Productions  |  IP: Logged Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 12-21-2002 03:49 AM                     Yes, we had dreadful shedding problems with 'Schindlers List' and 'Ed Wood'. The dust coming off the rpints gets everywhere, all over the image, all over the soundtrack, gets behind the spring runners in the trap and knocks the focus all over the place...... The renters here kept sending us replacement prints every two weeks of the run, as even PTR rollers or web media cleaner wasn't taking the dust off. The solution would have been to wax the B&W prints, but renters point blank refused to pay for this. We'd no waxing machine in the booth anymore, so an ago old trick since documented by Kodak was employed. Clear 'Kiwi' brand show polish was sparingly applied to the edges of the reels and problem solved!  |  IP: Logged Michael Barry Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 584 From: Sydney, NSW, Australia Registered: Nov 1999 posted 12-21-2002 08:29 AM                     To paraphrase a line from 'Cinema Paradiso', sometimes the solution arrives a bit too late... The perfect solution for 'Schindler' would have been to do the whole print in IB tech so that going from black and white to color would be seamless (no splices required) while still maintaining the richness of real black and white print stock. Then FilmGuard could have been used to eliminate shedding entirely. If only!  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 12-21-2002 10:09 AM                    B&W on IB Tech sometimes referred to as Dye Monochrome is still not real B&W although it has a good and interesting look (see "Stairway to Heaven" aka "A Matter of Life and Death"). However, you raise an interesting possibility which is to actually print the black & white sequences directly at the same time the soundtrack is laid down. That presumes that the receiver film stock can produce a quality projection contrast image as it may have been optimized for its soundtrack and dye receiver functions. Theoretically it's possible. There would still probably be some focus shift as the silver image B&W sections are going to run warmer than the color portions.  |  IP: Logged Christopher Seo Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 530 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-21-2002 01:56 PM                     If indeed the receiver is capable of a quality silver image, then it would just be a matter of overlaying the dye onto the parts of the image that required it, during the scenes which required it. This doesn't seem any different from the original IB process which used a partial silver 'key' image over which the CMY dyes were applied (although whether this key was of sufficient quality to provide anything more than additional contrast, I don't know). Thus for "Schindler's List", during the shots with both B&W and color, the B&W image could still be pure silver while the dye could be selectively applied to the dress, etc. It's just a matter of creating selective CMYK elements, and with digital image processing the effect should be very controllable. It would be very simple to process the image and output both B&W and color negs for the shot (perhaps even recording directly to the matrices!). The B&W neg would contain the entire image while the CMY matrices would contain information only in the dress area. In this way the dress area could be restricted to dye only (i.e., totally dark on the B&W neg), or for a more desaturated look it could contain both dye and silver. In fact this process would be a lot more sophisticated than bleach-bypass since the amount of silver in the image could be changed from shot to shot and in different areas of the shot as well, though digital processing.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 12-21-2002 07:40 PM                    I was thinking of an either/or scene to scene thing but your idea is really excellent. Her coat gets whited out on the B&W image during the digital stage and IB only lays down the image of the coat (primarily just magenta and yellow dyes). I don't think IB is going to haze up the rest of the image but there might be problems with occasional color speckles in the B&W. Did anyone ever publish photos of the "new" IB printer?  |  IP: Logged Christopher Seo Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 530 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-21-2002 08:51 PM                     Steve, Earlier posts on "Schindler's List" had got me thinking, and I concluded that this system doesn't seem much different from Technicolor's original three-color system, updated of course for the digital age. I hadn't thought of color speckles (from matrix dust?), although for a movie like "Schindler's List" it could perhaps be minimized by intercutting the matrices with polyester blank for B&W-only shots. B&W-only reels wouldn't have to be run through the printer at all, and perhaps could be printed on regular B&W stock if they were consistent enough with the receiver stock. It would be great to see a movie like "Pleasantville" or "Frida" (which has some mixed B&W/color shots that "desaturate" in and out) printed in this manner. Direct-to-matrix recording at 4K resolution could yield phenomenal results. Alas, it may be a moot point anyway with dye-transfer's future again uncertain.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 12-22-2002 01:11 AM                    Some other firm was supposed to be working on a dye transfer process but that was a few years back and nothing seems to have come of it. I think they were touting digital techniques.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 12-24-2002 06:10 AM                        Jeff Joseph wrote: "After it became apparent that there was a problem with shedding on the black and white prints of this title and also "Ed Wood", the late Tom Ogburn of Benke Filmtex coated the prints of both titles with TomaCote. This helped eliminate the shedding and focus issues on both features." "TomaKote" is a proprietary film treatment that provides print lubrication. I recall that Tom Ogburn's daughter Paula took over the business (ICS Services in Glendale, CA) after her father died, and provides print treatment services and screening facilities to film studios.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 12-24-2002 06:20 AM                        Pete Naples wrote: "We'd no waxing machine in the booth anymore, so an ago old trick since documented by Kodak was employed. Clear 'Kiwi' brand show polish was sparingly applied to the edges of the reels and problem solved!" The "emergency" method of edgewaxing prints with paste wax or clear paste shoe polish does work, although it is difficult to control the amount of application. These waxes are usually a mix of hard waxes (solid paraffin or carnauba) dissolved in a solvent like naphtha or Stoddards solvent to make them soft. After the solvent evaporates, only a thin coating of wax remains, lubricating the print to resist projector abrasion. Kodak recommends edge waxing by the lab as the preferred method of print lubrication, per SMPTE Recommended Practice RP151: Kodak Print Lubrication Recommendation Print Lubrication Methods  |  IP: Logged Jeff Joseph Expert Film Handler Posts: 131 From: Palmdale, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2000 posted 12-24-2002 07:46 AM                        Jeff Joseph wrote: "After it became apparent that there was a problem with shedding on the black and white prints of this title and also "Ed Wood", the late Tom Ogburn of Benke Filmtex coated the prints of both titles with TomaCote. This helped eliminate the shedding and focus issues on both features." John P. Pytlak wrote: "TomaKote" is a proprietary film treatment that provides print lubrication. I recall that Tom Ogburn's daughter Paula took over the business (ICS Services in Glendale, CA) after her father died, and provides print treatment services and screening facilities to film studios." John: To the best of my knowledge, Paula no longer does this. She never really made any money doing this and stopped both making TomaKote and coating films. Tom's business was "Benke Filmtex", not ICS. I believe ICS is still around, but they had nothing to do with Tom or Paula. It's too bad, as TomaKote is a terrific product. At one point (when Tom was still alive), I tried selling the stuff, but: making it (legally) is tough; so is shipping. Jeff Joseph SabuCat Productions -------------------- John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist  |  IP: Logged Christopher Seo Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 530 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-26-2002 09:32 PM                     quote: Some other firm was supposed to be working on a dye transfer process but that was a few years back and nothing seems to have come of it. I think they were touting digital techniques. Steve, this sounds like Chromax, Inc. of Santa Barbara. According to some information I found, they took out a patent 5,574,659 on the use of digital techniques to produce dye-transfer matrices. This SMPTE abstract from a 1994 paper, "Imbibition Release Prints Utilizing Digital Technology," sums it up. Does anyone know if Chromax is still active, or indeed if it ever produced dye-transfer prints?  |  IP: Logged

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