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Author Topic: What do companies have against printing frame lines? Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 01-03-2003 08:12 AM                        John writes: quote: My other "gripes" with trailers include the practice of not using larger cores (to avoid core-set "clockspringing" and to improve focus stability)... I agree. Whoever invented 2" cores has a lot to answer for. They were a particular menace in the days of acetate when they would be used in order to force a slightly oversized reel into a 2,000 foot can. The result was either that the core would fall out as you attempted to lift the roll out of the can, or that the 100-200 feet nearest the centre would be so deformed as to cause focus problems or, if fed from a platter, film transport issues. Elements acquired by an archive after years of storage on a 2" core can sometimes be so shrunk and deformed as to need wet-gate step printing. We use inert polypropylene 4" cores when recanning an element.  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 01-03-2003 09:31 AM                     Umm, Leo, in the US trailers come on 1" cores (or "sleeves" if you prefer). --jhawk  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 01-03-2003 09:34 AM                        jhawk wrote: "Umm, Leo, in the US trailers come on 1" cores (or "sleeves" if you prefer)." And sometimes no core at all! Just a 1-inch diameter hole in the center of the roll. A "Film Done Wrong" practice that results in focus flutter (core-set clockspringing) and handling cinches.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-03-2003 09:47 AM                        I'd be _happy_ to get trailers on 2" cores, but that's pretty rare here. The 2" cores are used for camera stock, so I would think that they could easily be recycled for trailer use. Of course, 3" or 4" cores would be better, but I can't be too picky here. Other trailer rants: Leaders are often too short. A full countdown would be nice, but at least 2-3 feet of blank leader at the head and tail would be an improvement on what is common at this time. Also, get rid of those silly "TV cues" that appear right before the picture starts and often overlap the soundtrack. I understand that they are useful for TV work, but they are useless and annoying for theatrical trailers. I've been coloring them in with a Sharpie, but they are still visible on screen and cannot be removed without causing a disruption in the soundtrack. Oh, and is anyone else running the new "Sundance Film Festival" promo trailer? It has _three_ countdowns and the soundtrack begins before the last countdown ends. It doesn't sound too bad if it is cut on the frame right after the "2", though, so that is what I have been doing. Also it has a single cue mark in the middle of the otherwise-black tail. Grr. As for Kodak vs. Fuji--Tim's animation definitely looks better on Fuji. I don't know if it is a stock issue or a lab issue, but the difference is very noticeable. For live-action films, though, I prefer the Kodak look in most cases, preferably when printed at Deluxe Toronto or Technicolor Hollywood.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 01-03-2003 10:09 AM                        Yes. Camera negative film is usually packaged on a 2-inch core (to allow more compact camera magazines). Lab films are wound on 3-inch cores. Recycled cores are readily available: http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h1/sizesP.shtml#cores http://www.fpchollywood.com/cores.html  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 01-03-2003 11:00 AM                        Scott... I know what you mean about the Sundance trailers. However the last countdown is SUPPOSED to actually be projected onscreen. Notice how it looks completely different than the first two, which are the same. But the way they print the thing they don't give you much of a clue. And also any trailer with credits is just lame lame lame! At least we know who to blame! I also hate any "trailer" or ad that uses fake dirt and/or scratches and/or keystoning and/or bad aperture like the Sundance does. When that's the first thing that hits the screen, it gives the audience the impression that you suck much ass, but it's actually the trailer itself. I bet Sundance sucks ass. I will boycott their film festival. That'll show 'em.  |  IP: Logged Thomas Procyk Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1842 From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 01-03-2003 01:13 PM                     quote: I also hate any "trailer" or ad that uses fake dirt and/or scratches and/or keystoning and/or bad aperture like the Sundance does. Take a look at "Confessions of a Dangerous Mind" when you get a chance. There are parts of the trailer where there's black text on a red background that's COVERED in gobs and gobs of simulated dirt for that "look". First time I saw it, I was like "HOLY !!" But then realized the "dirt" was only at those parts. Still, looks bad on screen and leaves people in the audience thinking they saw dirty film. Call your bookers! Boycott this film!! Charles may chime in on this one, but it figures it's a MIRAMAX film! =TMP=  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-03-2003 05:03 PM                        Joe--it's interesting that you have these trailers, as I had suspected that it was a Landmark-specific thing. Guess not. Are you _sure_ that the countdown is supposed to be shown? If so, that's a great way to make the projectionist look like a real moron, if you ask me. Not that those trailers don't do a good enough job of that as it is. Anyway, if I ever travel for a significant distance to attend one of the major festivals, I will be going to Telluride (and will say hi to Ian there). Sundance is apparently pretty boring now and there have been many stories of projection problems in the past. Sadly, Sundance seems to be more about selling films than about enjoying them.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 01-03-2003 07:53 PM                        Scott... take a look at the last countdown, the B&W one. It has the same artificial keystoning as the rest of the trailer, plus has fake dirt and scratches in it. After you are done being amazed at the creativity of all those who created the trailer, listen to the audio during the third countdown (it helps to have a trailer with the third countdown intact for this). It beeps for EVERY NUMBER! No real countdown would ever do this (hopefully). It also beeps when the Sundance logo first appears onscreen. They did this intentionally. Yes, it does make the projectionist look like a moron. Please memorize the names during the trailer credits and then stalk these people for me. I can't believe they think people care enough about this ad that they want to see the credits of those who made it. They must be really proud of it.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-03-2003 08:35 PM                     But Joe and Scott, it is FILM and by film's very nature it MUST be dirty. The mere fact that there is a scratch MUST mean that it was ran on a platter too, because people who think film must be dirty and platters cause scratches are idiots, and that is the vast majority of the population (and unfortunately a lot of stupid people in this industry too).  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-03-2003 08:48 PM                        Brad--thanks for the info. I'll be sure to add some more scratches, splices, and random cue marks just to make that trailer look more like "film." I'm almost tempted to put the weird countdowns back, but with the numbers spliced in out of order. At least it would then have some potential humor value for the more clueful audience members.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-03-2003 09:20 PM                     Anyone ever notice that these "filmlike" effects never include diagonal scratches?  |  IP: Logged Christopher Seo Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 530 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-04-2003 01:32 PM                     Platter scratches aren't chic because platters themselves aren't chic, Brad. That's why platters are never shown in movies that feature theatres. Filmmakers know that platters and their scratches would instantly destroy the film mystique.  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 01-04-2003 05:16 PM                        Mark J. said: "It's not a problem cutting them because you can see the "3" on one side, and the "FINISH" on the other side. But once they're cut, it's a bitch for the next guy to figure out if it's cut correctly when looking for a bad splice." And knowing how hard that is, I always make it a point when I get a new trailer to use a Sharpie to mark where the frame lines are on two or three more frames. I put this ref mark in between the perferations. I know some guys who use the edge of a razor to scratch a small line between the perfs, but feel more comfortable using a marker. Of course when running older analog films, this works fine and all you need to worry about is keeping your reference mark in the clear area between the perfs; with tri-digital prints, you need to be sure to pick the non-Dolby SRD side and then be careful your mark doesn't invade the SDDS track as well. Anyone here know if the SDDS reader would complain if the mark were to slip into the SDDS digital track? It is only the width of the space between the sprockets, and it is pretty transparant....would the color make a difference, say green or blue as opposed to red? Point is, if you are the guy making that first easy cut at the obvious frame line on a new trailer (one after the "3" frame and one before the "FINISH" frame), it only takes a few seconds to add a few extra marks that will help the next guy know where the frame lines are on what would otherwise now be completely black film without any frame reference. In the repetory/art house, the "next guy" could very well be you a few months down the line when that same film is booked again. Frank [ 01-11-2003, 01:17 AM: Message edited by: Frank Angel ]  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-04-2003 06:25 PM                     Technically you could make your mark from the edge of the picture all the way through the inboard SDDS track to the edge of the film and teh SDDS would not drop. However I still wouldn't make a habit of it, but if it slips now and then, no biggie. Personally I never make any mark on trailers or the feature or anything. There really is no need. Just "break" the splices apart for storage. Then when you go to reuse them again, peel the tape and you are "in frame". Alternatively if you want to chop that frame, then just count 4 perfs over and you are still "in frame". My only beef is with people who peel the tape off before storage. Then I have to ask myself "is this an in-frame cut?" and I end up double checking. With the torn tape still on the film ends, I have no doubt.  |  IP: Logged

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