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Author Topic: ID Frames and their effect on Sound Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-09-2003 09:52 AM                     If memory serves it is supposed to be in the centre of the dwell cycle that moses suposes that pix start is in the apperture block  |  IP: Logged Ray Derrick Master Film Handler Posts: 310 From: Sydney, Australia Registered: Sep 2001 posted 02-10-2003 12:58 AM                     Reference to SMPTE 40-1997 states that there is +/- 1/2 frame tolerence on that 21 frame offset, so in reality the offset isn't all that accurate. Furthermore, Annex A of the same document suggests that the projectionist is at liberty to place the picture/sound synchronisation point anywhere in the cinema by varying the length of the threading path in the projector. So much for standards.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 02-10-2003 05:22 AM                        quote: Would DTS even really benefit from a basement reader? The only advantage that I can see for SRD is that threading the cat. 699/700/701 takes a few extra seconds. The DTS reader is so easy to thread (and nearly impossible to thread incorrectly), that I don't really see the point, except maybe for installations that use enclosed reel magazines (and which aren't likely to have DTS, anyway). The real advantage would be the ability to supply a pickup which reads all four formats (SVA/SRD/DTS/SDDS) in one unit, and which could be supplied as standard with a projector mechanism. However I can't think of any reason why this couldn't be above the gate, except that you'd need a means of setting a delay for the SVA.  |  IP: Logged Don Bruechert Mmmmmmmmm, bird! Posts: 340 From: Manitowoc, WI, USA Registered: Jan 2003 posted 02-10-2003 08:45 AM                        We got a letter in the mail a few days ago from some "Marshall" guy associated with Chicago - I forget the details. He was asking projectionsists to remove the absolute minimum of frames when building up the print because there are audio sequences that flow across the reel change. A bit too late for us as we already did our standard single reference frame when we built it up last week, but maybe a heads up to some of you other folks.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 02-10-2003 08:56 AM                        That's Rob Marshall, the Director of the film: http://us.imdb.com/Title?0299658  |  IP: Logged Christopher Dreiling Film Handler Posts: 5 From: Santa Ana, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2003 posted 02-11-2003 01:18 PM                     So, is it acceptable to have an ID frame on the head and tail leader, but preferable to only have a ID frame on the head leader? Chris  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 02-11-2003 02:03 PM                        The debate over ID frames goes on...and on...and on. In a perfect world, every frame of picture would be shown. In reality, ID frames provide verification of reel ID if leaders are not properly reattached. I favor a single ID frame at both head and tail, if it helps prevent later reel mixup, and no frames end up being discarded over the life of the print.  |  IP: Logged Don Bruechert Mmmmmmmmm, bird! Posts: 340 From: Manitowoc, WI, USA Registered: Jan 2003 posted 02-11-2003 02:22 PM                        Moses supposes the projectionist knowses to build up the new print adjudiously. But Moses he knowses the projectionist s'poses he will get away with it eventually. So Moses he goeses and thumbs his noses at all them that build up unethically. And Moses he knowses that that's how it goeses at the low end of the projection industry. OK, sorry... I just couldn't resist... we just did that play last year even tho I can't remember the name of it.  |  IP: Logged Dustin Mitchell Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1865 From: Mondovi, WI, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 02-11-2003 04:57 PM                     Christopher, While the standard practice is to leave an ID frame on the head and tail of a reel I see no reason for there to be one on the tail. You only need an ID frame on one side of the splice to positivly identify it and you only need one at one end of the reel to determine which reel it is. Losing too frames (one on the head and one of the tail) at each splice is completely unecessary.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-11-2003 06:13 PM                        But what if a print arrives with the reels wound tails-out? Then, each reel has to be rewound before one can determine that the leaders are indeed attached correctly. Personally, I think that this whole topic is about splitting hairs--the much bigger issue in my mind is to ensure that frames don't get chopped by every theatre that plays the print. I've seen too many prints that were completely missing the original second set of cue marks (which would mean at least 22 missing frames) to be concerned with the loss of two reference frames per reel by the first theatre to play the print.  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-11-2003 06:39 PM                        "He was asking projectionsists to remove the absolute minimum of frames when building up the print because there are audio sequences that flow across the reel change" Yeah....and whose fault is that, pray tell? Like the tale of, who was it said that when they ran a preview of Ed Harris's directorial stint with the film POLLOCK, he sat in the booth constantly telling the projectionist to rack the framing up a bit then down a bit, never seemed satisfied with where the image was centered. My take on that was, if he was so damn concerned about framing, then why didn't he hard-matte the thing in the release print exactly where he wanted it, instead hassling the projectionist for two hours? Did he think in the real world there would be even a living person in the booth to tweek the framing knob (which, as we all know, Brad and Joe have already welded it to the casing)? Frank  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-11-2003 10:01 PM                     So what if he screwed up; doesn't seem appropriate to criticize him too much for at least trying to make the best he can of an unfortunate situation. --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Dustin Mitchell Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1865 From: Mondovi, WI, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 02-11-2003 10:33 PM                     If the print arrives tails out its going to need to be rewound anyways to be platterized or put on house reels for c/o booths. And besides, there are only two kinds of theatres that would send prints out tails up: -C/O houses, where either the leader hasn't been removed anyway or it is on correctly (one should hope so at leas), or -Platter houses who tear down from the platter onto 6k's and then bring them to the bench. I would hope that if a theatre cares enough to inspect their prints on the way out (the only reason I can think of for tearing down at the bench instead of directly onto shipping reels from the platter) they would be able to re-attach the leaders properly  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 02-11-2003 11:23 PM                        Or a third way... Disorganized c/o house that rewinds the print, forgetting that it needs to be broken down, then breaks down resulting in tails out. Or a fourth way... A c/o house with a limited number of 6000' take-up reels that rewinds the print so they can use their floating hub take-ups before the print gets broken down. Then breaking the print down, resulting in tails out.  |  IP: Logged

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