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Author Topic: TA-10 Automation: Phantom Cue Tom Fermanian Expert Film Handler Posts: 101 From: Sainte Adele, Quebec, Canada Registered: Dec 2001 posted 02-21-2003 03:07 PM                     Hi, are using this automation & fm35s, here is a problem that occured, it may or may not apply to your situation, we where getting "stray" cues, after days of checking & double checking,we discovered that a certain FM 35 was particularly sensitive to metal,So, when the operator was assembling his prints, he was sometimes perforating the cue tape in order to free the sproket hole, (we have since bought a cue punch machine) Well, a tiny bit sprocket hole size piece of foil tape occasionaly got stuck on one of the splicer hole plungers, that piece eventualy got caught under the next splice, this was enough to trigger the fm35 & automation!!!  |  IP: Logged German Marin Expert Film Handler Posts: 227 From: Verbania (VB), Italy Registered: Jul 2001 posted 02-21-2003 07:49 PM                     Try changing the FM-35 between machines just to be sure the source of problem: TA-10 or FM-35. One of our TA-10 systems stopped suddenly with the alarm, the problem was the FM-35 doesn't see the film presence sometimes.  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-21-2003 10:04 PM                        you don't need to disconnect anything if your presence/motion detectors fail; there are 2 white override switches on the left side of the main board of the ta-10, near where all the colored wires come in. we have one ta-10 that only misbehaves when the breaker's turned on. about 50% of the time it will turn the house lights full off and switch to mono & dolby a sound (yes, both formats, simultaneously!). someday our tech might fix it. carl  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-22-2003 12:44 PM                     Yes, those of us who have TA-10's can use that.. and only for the presence/motion sensors. For other brands of automation that may or may not have that... or for times when the cue detector produces a "Type-1" malfunction you need a quick, simple and effective way to temporarily disable the offending detector. Removing the detector module does that but allows the other one to still function.  |  IP: Logged Rick Long Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 759 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Nov 1999 posted 02-22-2003 07:11 PM                     Why not change the outboard cue to centre and inboard? Eliminate the outboard cue altogether (temporarily at least). The out-board cue relay, not connected to anything, won't affect anything even if it does pulse. This should cure the fault for now.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-23-2003 11:01 AM                     Changing the cues would require soldering. The TA-10's cues are changed by removing/replacing jumpers on the MOBO. (Actually diodes, I believe.) I have the cues set the way they are for a reason: O.B. and I.B. cues turn the lights up and down. OUTboard = Lights OUT. INboard = Lights IN. (on) Center cue triggers the End of Show sequence. (Interval) Never does a cue that has the potential of appearing on the screen go through the projector until the very end when it doesn't matter anymore. One small "blip" on the screen, a fraction of a second before the dowser shuts will be hard to notice. Furthermore, if you make the cue small and stick in on the last frame of black film before the "blue band" it would take a sharp-eyed person, indeed, to notice it! There are four wires that control the lights: RED wire = Lights OUT. GREEN wire = Lights ON. (100%) WHITE wire = Lights DIM (Manual fader setting.) BLACK wire = COMMON. One end is inside the automation chassis, coming from the relay outputs and the other is inside the junction box on the wall where the light controller lives. IF this gets to be too much trouble, I can simply disconnect one of the wires and disable the light function. All I have to do is go inside the automation and unscrew the wire from one terminal. If I undo the RED wire, I can disable the Lights OUT function. When the trailers are over all you have to do is press the button on the wall controller. If I undo the BLACK wire, I can diable the light control functions all together and simply control the lights manually. This strategy was all thought out in advance even before I ran the wires from the projector to the wall box. I had to make it so that, in the case of a malfunction, the system could be quickly diabled and restored to its original configuration in a matter of minutes. This facility was originally a stage theater. The projector was installed as an after thought. In order to convince the powers-that-be to let me hook up all this automation I had to promise to hook things up in such a way that it wouldn't "interfere" with the other performances in the venue. (Yes, they are a bunch of Technophobes! ) It's a good thing I did things this way. This is SUCH a small problem but some people have a way of making mountains out of molehills, sometimes! Thanks to all your help, I think I know what to look for. It's just a matter of being there in the booth when it happens so that I can verify whether it's the cue detector or the automation's circuitry. I have sat there for over an hour and it hasn't happend while I was watching. (Literally the "watched pot" effect, doncha' know! ) As I get the time to investigate the problem, I will tell you all what I found out and what the solution turns out to be.  |  IP: Logged Don Olson Film Handler Posts: 20 From: Seattle WA Registered: Jul 99 posted 02-24-2003 12:24 PM                        Randy: The 3 chips are all different. The complete set of chips is 4 dollars. Plus shipping. UPS ground would be about equal to that. If you are really on a budget perhaps we can mail them to you in an envelope. Give me a call if you need them. Don Olson Component Engineering.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-24-2003 01:18 PM                     I've got a couple of things brewing right now... Our dimmer system has just taken a shit on us. I have to get on the horn to Strand Lighting ASAP. The entire house is dark until that is fixed. As soon as I get back up to that booth I'll figure out which is is. Why can't life ever be simple???  |  IP: Logged Ken McFall Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 615 From: Haringey, London. Registered: Apr 2001 posted 02-24-2003 03:56 PM                     There is one other thing you could try.... I used to have a problem in one screen when the xenon lamp striked it would close the masking. We fitted the shields that CE supply to filter out spikes and the problem dissapeared. This does depend on where the problem is happening, if its the FM35 then the shield won't help but if it's some sort of spike being picked up elsewhere then the shield may help. They are not expensive at all and worth a try. Thanks to Don and the team for their help in the past. I've moved on and have Pennywise to play with now Regards. [ 02-26-2003, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Ken McFall ]  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-27-2003 12:26 AM                     Finally, as I was sitting in the booth, breaking down "Columbine" did I witness the malfunction! It seems like the automation is activating without being asked to do so by the FM-35. It happened while I had my attention on the film but I quickly glanced over and saw no lights lit on the cue detector. They stay lit for about 1/2 second, right? It happened again about a minute later. Again, I couldn't see any light on the detector. Furthermore, there's a small relay inside the failsafe that makes a clicking sound when activated. It's soft but when the room is quiet you can hear a distinct "double click" sound when the cue detector asks the automation to do something. I heard no such double click. Only a single. So, Don, it looks like I'll be calling you up for a set of chips! Thanks for the help!  |  IP: Logged Paul G. Thompson The Weenie Man Posts: 4718 From: Mount Vernon WA USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 02-27-2003 01:04 AM                     Are the systems interlocked? I had random shut-down cues. After going nuts...I found the problem. Shit was feeding down the interlock wires from an adjacent house. The connection wires were ran from the automation, into the HV raceway, out of the raceway, into the sound rack, out of the sound rack through the speaker cable wire raceway, into the speaker junction box, out the junction box, and over to the other projection station. It found its way into the automation through the same type of path as it left the other projection station. It took me a long time to get that one solved. I disconnected all that crap since we never interlock anyway. Not a bit of trouble with phantom cues whatsoever. Is there a possibility your wiring could be as screwed up as mine was?  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 02-27-2003 01:09 AM                        He's only got one projector there Paul.  |  IP: Logged Paul G. Thompson The Weenie Man Posts: 4718 From: Mount Vernon WA USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 02-27-2003 01:18 AM                     OOPS! Anyway, if new "chips" do not solve the problem, I would suspect a voltage spike in the AC power line caused by a heavy-draw motor or some other spontaneous RFI getting into the logic and/or CPU boards, or crappy power supply filtering - for that matter, just a crappy ground connection. Are you near any high power transmitting towers? Hell, if the local radio station once found its way into a CP-50, RF can certainly find its way into the automation and create hovac, especially if the broadcast engineer is not on his/her toes and flat-line's an AM transmitter. It splatters crap all over the place.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-27-2003 10:23 AM                     Although this is a single machine set-up, the automation does have the interlock capability. Don't know WHY it would ever get used but it's there. Here's the puzzler: Our stage lighting is controlled by a solid state dimmer system. (Who doesn't, nowadays?) Strand Model CD-80sv, to be exact. There is a processor module in the base of the dimmer rack that looks similar to a SDDS, processor module. Essentially a circuit board about a foot square with modular connectors on the back and a display/control panel on the front. The other day, half the lights on the stage started flashing. The system has two dimmer racks, each with 96 dimmers in each. (There are 192 circuits, total. Dimmer-per-circuit. 2.4K watts max. per dimmer.) Circuits 97 through 192 are flashing. I ran down to the "crypt" in the basement where the dimmer racks are and I find the right hand rack flashing into "panic mode". (When the electronic processor fails all the lights are supposed to come on. Somebody's idea of a safety measure, I guess.) The processor in that rack was cycling on and off, thus the flashing. After testing and troubleshooting we determined that the module had bit the dust and needed repair/replacement. That's all done, now. The lights are working as normal. Good thing! We have a show tonight! BUT... Don't you think it's funny that the processor for the lights should die right about the same time the projector starts to act up?  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-27-2003 12:52 PM                     It is possible you have had a lightning strike nearby producing a nasty spike on the lines In your dimmers theat module is the interface from the console (which is often a DMX deriviative) to generating the gate pule for each SSR block in the dimmer modules. I always felt that when they gave up discrete fireing cards per dimmer a lot of reliability went out the door  |  IP: Logged

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