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Author Topic: John Allen: "All Seats Hear Stereo" Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-23-2003 08:28 PM                     I think the point is being missed the issue is with the stage channel coverage and stereo imaging of the stage channels acording to the latest propaganda from framingham  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 03-23-2003 09:20 PM                        I am aware of that, but the surround sound quality does not contradict but reinforce the claim to be able to provide full coverage with good location.  |  IP: Logged Mark Seaton Film Handler Posts: 7 From: Glenview, IL, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 03-25-2003 10:34 AM                        Hi Guys, I typically just lurk, but being that my main interest here is sound, this caught my attention. Interestingly, in the general prosound community, there has been a good deal of discussion on simlar topics, where some have been implementing cross matrixed and "shaded" arrays to more properly distribute surrround to a large space. For a screen system as mentioned, the goal would be to increase or limit the amount of level drop as you moved away from it. Non standard horn shapes can mostly achieve this, and properly designed arrays of multiple horns per channel could do this as well. I looked through the HPS-4000 website, but didn't find any information about the new system or any info on what methods are used. It was interesting though to find that there are some HPS-4000 systems in my area. I still have yet to be impressed with the bass in a commercial theater, this looks like a step a little closer. Regards, Mark Seaton  |  IP: Logged Tim Reed Better Projection Pays Posts: 5246 From: Northampton, PA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 03-25-2003 11:12 AM                       I don't blame John Allen for not posting.  |  IP: Logged David Stambaugh Film God Posts: 4021 From: Eugene, Oregon Registered: Jan 2002 posted 03-25-2003 11:36 AM                        The HPS-4000 web site doesn't provide enough information to explain in even general terms how the "All Seats Hear Stereo" concept works. All that's being asked here is "Please give us some more information." John Allen doesn't have to divulge anything proprietary, and he certainly doesn't have to get into a debate. If he wants to speak up, he will. Maybe the undercurrent of hostility here discourages him from doing so. If I were him, I would just state my case and leave it at that. Also, it would be interesting to know of any specific commercial theatres where this new concept has been applied. Maybe someone could check it out and report back.  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 03-25-2003 04:38 PM                        I still think it's a great idea. I just wish we knew a little more than 'All seats hear stereo'. It's hard to tell others about the system if we really know nothing about it. BTW, if anybody missed it, I was just referring to John's ShoWest video interview before. That video leads me to believe that John has a great sense of humour (kinda like Phil).  |  IP: Logged Paul Goulet Master Film Handler Posts: 347 From: Rhode Island Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-25-2003 05:39 PM                        POST DELETED BY MODERATOR - PLEASE READ FAQ BEFORE POSTING AGAIN  |  IP: Logged Mark Lensenmayer Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1605 From: Upper Arlington, OH Registered: Sep 1999 posted 03-25-2003 06:30 PM                     I sense something Clintonian going on here. I think we must define just what STEREO means. Does it mean I can hear 3 distinct sources from the front or 3 distinct and EQUAL sources from the front. In my humble viewing room, my laptop is in the corner of the room. I'm about 8 feet from the left speaker, 12 feet from the center and about 16 to the right. I'm directly underneath the left surround, about 10 feet from the back surround, and a good 20' to the left surround. Do I hear stereo in this position? Well, I can hear each of the speakers when there are sounds specific to that channel. I have a Dolby demo disc with a vocal group doing an acapella song, with voices in each channel. I hear each of the individual parts, but, of course, the speakers closest to me sound louder. Now, from this position, I'll put on something lush and symphonic...say the Overture to OKLAHOMA. I hear a full, orchestral sound with some localization, but still, I'm hearing mostly that left channel and the left surround. I could claim, however, that I am hearing stereo from that position. OK, move to the prime listening position (OK, it IS right under the back surround speaker, but I don't have any choice in this room. I'm not fond of pounding through block, weight-bearing walls just to locate a speaker!) On selection A, the vocal group, the sound is much more balanced. I can hear all of the parts equally well, as I am equally distant from each speaker. But, not much difference here. BUT, on the OKLAHOMA track, I hear things much differently, as instead of just 3 sound sources in the front, I hear sounds in-between the speakers due to the exact time that sound reaches my ears. Our brain uses these small differences in timing to precisely locate sound. Sitting in the sweet spot tricks the brain into locating sound that isn't really there. THAT, to me is stereo, and that is what I want to experience in a theatre. There is no way I can do that on the side. That's why you will always find me sitting in the exact center of the theatre. So, after all of this rambling, my question (and it is a serious and respectful one) is, Mr. Allen, just what is your definition of STEREO?  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 03-25-2003 06:47 PM                     David has pretty well summed up the one question that keeps being repeated in this thread. If I set up a booth at ShoWest and said "buy my lamphouse and you will never, ever have to change out the xenon bulb", people would say "uhhhh, yeah right". The reason for this is because it has never been done before and everyone accepts the fact that xenons do have a lifespan. This is no different. Now if I was to explain how and why (even if I did not give away any trade secret), then assuming my lamphouse performed at least as well as the common ones on the market today, all other manufacturers would cease selling lamphouses. Right? I'll shoot an email off to John Allen tomorrow if we still haven't heard anything from him. He may be waiting for a patent pending to go through or something before he comments.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-25-2003 06:53 PM                     Most companies don't announce something till the patent is actually pending, or at very least till patent has been applied for. That opening page he has up is just a bunch of jargon that leaves one with no sense of what he is claiming. Personally I think its just a bunch of marketing hype just like the built in EX decoding of the rear surrounds was.... Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 03-25-2003 07:25 PM                    I think some of you are inventing a secrecy issue that doesn't exist. Ought to just be a matter of finding the paper written by Mr. Klipsch and reading what the technique was and deciding how applicable it may or may not be. If it enhances the stereo listening experience then great. Brad: Your hypothetical lamphouse could be carbon arc!  |  IP: Logged Tim Reed Better Projection Pays Posts: 5246 From: Northampton, PA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 03-26-2003 05:14 PM                       Brad, the fallacy in your analogy is you don't have people ragging on you in a forum that you've been run away from once before. If you recall, John Allen was unmercifully crucified on this forum several years ago, and it seemed everyone ganged up on him. With that in mind, why would he be motivated to deliver anything here? Just as you would not divulge the formula of your Film Guard (and only make a claim as to what it's supposed to do), John Allen doesn't have to explain how his formulas work, either. He makes a claim as to what the results will be. Suffice it to say that he delivers. I don't purport to speak for Mr. Allen, but I consider him a friend. Probably to the chagrin of some, he already has the attention of the industry in BOXOFFICE. If he has technical papers to present, he could very easily do so there, or in the SMTPE or AES Journals. He's certainly not obligated to do anything.  |  IP: Logged Lyle Romer Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1400 From: Davie, FL, USA Registered: May 2002 posted 03-26-2003 06:28 PM                     If I was John Allen and just read a statement like this one, I certainly wouldn't rush to post anything here. "Personally I think its just a bunch of marketing hype just like the built in EX decoding of the rear surrounds was...." Maybe if everything he has posted in the past wasn't attacked with a "if John Allen says it, it must be wrong" type of attitude, he'd be a more willing participant in discussions. I've only heard HPS-4000 one time in my life and I was very impressed. John's theories and methods may be unconventional but isn't it unconventional thinking that leads to innovation? If people were to debate his theories based on experiments and facts then maybe the debate would lead to a huge advance in sound quality across the industry. And BTW, the HPS-4000 EX "decoding" does work. The whole point of EX was to get around the issue of sound coming out of both surround channels localizing to the channel closest to the listener. If you have extremely even surround coverage (which HPS-4000 does, and other arrays are capable of if designed and aimed properly), you will get a phantom-ex channel just like you'll get a phantom center sitting between two speakers.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-26-2003 07:31 PM                     "If people were to debate his theories based on experiments and facts then maybe the debate would lead to a huge advance in sound quality across the industry." _____________________________________________________________ Lyle, Thats exactly what has happened at other high end cinema speaker companies over the years!! They have debated the theories, the facts, the nonsense, and the unorthodox.....and have done it all with lots of experience in hand to boot. Some of these companies have the finest research labs in the world for developing this sort of technology. I agree that HPS is a pretty good system, and that it can certainly decode EX to some extent...but not peoperly. However, if John wants to make claims like that he ought to at least explain himself if he wants others to understand and believe. For him to claim something like that and then not stop by and explain it certainly leaves alot of us wondering.....about alot of different things.... Mark @ CLACO  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 03-26-2003 07:45 PM                        Mark, I am beginning to suspect here that you don`t hear very well... If you did you would probably be able to answer less polemic and more constructive and tell us what your ears say is not good about the systems. As Lyle pointed out, the surround arrays don`t have "inbuilt" EX decoding, it is a matter of localisation. You do not seem to know what you are talking about.  |  IP: Logged

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