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Author Topic: Mark that Frame Knob Charles Everett Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1470 From: New Jersey Registered: May 2001 posted 03-30-2003 12:49 PM                     Brad is correct -- lock the frame knob! My last 2 visits to the AMC Hamilton were for Willard (yesterday) and Cradle 2 the Grave. Both of those films are in scope. Both times the booth reset the framing as the preshow began. Both times the entire program was shown with the image too high.  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 03-30-2003 01:06 PM                        What do you do with a projector that doesn`t have a frame knob? Like the Kinoton FP30E, it has two buttons for up and down since the intermittent is controlled electronically. Those buttons micro-adjust the sprocket in both directions and there is no centered position. You can slowly turn the sprocket in either direction forever if you want. Sure, you could always disconnect these buttons, but why downgrade the functionality of your equipment to make up for incompetent operators? To make threading easier, we have always used leaders of clear film with thin CS-style frame lines. You can see the aperture plate very well through the frames and see if the framing is OK. Many use old trailers as framing leaders. It is much more difficult to see what you are doing. This is also why we always use preconfigured leaders with attached sound trailers and company logos. They are never taken apart, only spliced on to the feature, to minimise the risk of splices out of frame. I always insist that the people I train check the entire film path from platter to projector and back step by step. The film has to sit perfectly on all rollers and sprockets, it has to enter the projector the right way around (sound track outwards), and of course the framing has to be checked while advancing a few frames. The FP30E has the advancing button on the front. I usually glue a little round felt pad on it so operators can easily find it even in the dark. I have always insisted that this routine is adhered to for every single show every time. Even if time is pressing, it only takes a few moments and avoids bigger problems which will take much longer to solve. Because if the film is not framed correctly and checked afterwards, chances are very good that it is also scratching somewhere and there is no knob to remove scratches from the film...  |  IP: Logged Christian Appelt Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 505 From: Frankfurt, Germany Registered: Dec 2001 posted 03-30-2003 03:54 PM                     quote: Decently designed projectors (like Kinoton) have a framing center marking anyway. Michael, the Kinoton "electronic drives" are IMHO just NOT decently designed projectors. Look at the many, many unsteady "E" installations, for example at the "Arsenal" in your hometown Berlin. When VERTIGO in 70mm was shown for the first time on their oh-so-great brand-new FP75E or whatever it`s called, they couldn`t get a steady picture. I say electronic drive is just an attempt to replace something mechanical that performed fine for more than a century and lasts for decades with something that will pass out sooner and has an inferior performance.  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 03-30-2003 04:18 PM                        You can get a very steady picture with a FP30E. Maybe there was a problem with the print or the projector wasn`t maintained very well. There is a software to calibrate the image steadiness of the FP30E which works very well. I have worked with dozens of them, and I have to say they it is my favourite projector, even though the electronic sprocket is a bit sensitive sometimes. Because the film transport is very quick, and there is more time to show the picture, you can get a very bright picture out. In one cinema I worked, we had triple blade shutters, and the image was virtually flicker-free at 72 frames. A lot of innovative technologies are hampered by bad installations and maintenance. There are of course always children`s diseases which have to be remedied in the first phase, but if the result is good, it is always good to try something new out. BTW, as I pointed out in my later post, the E series don`t have a framing marking anyway, the D projectors have it. Since the framing is controlled electronically, the E projectors have no central position.  |  IP: Logged Christian Appelt Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 505 From: Frankfurt, Germany Registered: Dec 2001 posted 03-30-2003 04:57 PM                     I`d say, "if it ain`t broken, don`t fix it." A maltese cross intermittent will last for many years without needing more than changing oil. It needs no software to have an excellent picture stability. Getting not enough light on the screen seems to me a thing of the past, in fact I see many multiplex theatres with too bright projection which increases flicker and takes out the black. Michael, you know so much about this industry and the equipment manufacturers - if enough manufacturers used the electronic drive components, don`t you think they would be glad to phase out the production of high quality mechanical systems? Much more profitable to sell plugin/plugout components instead of mechanical parts that will last for decades? We know an international manufacturer who tried to make a great number of sturdy, well running projectors obsolete by buying all available spare parts and destroying them after some years - don`t we? "You can make it foolproof, but you can`t make it damn foolproof!"  |  IP: Logged Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 03-30-2003 07:16 PM                     The software for the E series projector is easy and the results are impressive. In the USA we recently finished two training seminars ( Boston and Los Angeles )in which E software training was given. In Boston we where projecting a two meter picture; and standing less than 50 cm from the image, the picture was rock steady. E movements have their place ( especially on huge wall to wall screens )and so does the maltese cross, which is a 400 year old mechanical concept Richard Fowler Kinoton America Inc.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 03-30-2003 09:32 PM                     Michael, I have wanted Kinoton to have two framing controls for their E machines for a couple of years now. One just a push button on the front side that every time you push it, it will jump the framing by one whole perf (one button to go up, one button to go down). Then on the back side of the machine (preferably behind some kind of panel or in a box that can be locked if desired) have a "fine tuning" framing control like Kinoton currently has to tweek things dead on. (Alternatively the fine tuning framing control could be two buttons on the main control panel that have the option of being disabled in software.) A further thing I have wanted to see Kinoton implement is automatic framing. Seriously, all that would be required is the above mentioned framing scenario plus a cue sensor in the gate. What would happen is somewhere near the end of the leader there would be a "center cue" placed on the frameline of the leader. When the film passed, it would sense how far off it was and instantaneously adjust (easily within a second) to hit the screen in frame all the time, guaranteed. To further this idea, there should be loop sensors similar to what is on the ST200. If the upper loop sensor shows the loop is too big, it would adjust it smaller. Same for the lower loop. The end result would be a machine that so long as someone got the soundtrack facing out, could just slap the film in there and the projector itself would tweek the framing and threading. Hopefully the engineers at Kinoton will try and pull this off. Sales of those machines to multiplexes would go through the roof.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 03-30-2003 11:21 PM                    How about it senses if you're out of frame, makes the necessary correction, and logs it for your personnel file. Yes, if every house had these then framing while threading will be a thing of the past but that's unlikely and anything to stomp on stupid people, no? I attended a show Friday night that was Scope and they had it framed low enough to see the frameline and a hair of the next frame. I finally went to complain. The "correction" involved first turning the knob the wrong way and then framing it so that the frameline was on the top of the screen. As this was a real scope film we still had negative splices and various strange business on the CG stuff. Glad I wasn't a paying customer.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 03-30-2003 11:43 PM                     I removed the framing knob from a projector (as a test-run) and they simply went out and got a hex wrench to insert into the screw hole... ...how do you LOCK the framing mech on a Century type projector?  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 03-30-2003 11:50 PM                        How do you lock it on a Shi... I mean Simplex?  |  IP: Logged Dick Prather Master Film Handler Posts: 259 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 03-31-2003 03:52 AM                     You shouldn't have to lock any framing knob at all. When the machines cam from the factory Simplex projectors and Century (Whth new style metal knob) had the word "FRAME" horizontal at center. Older Century's had "Frame" rounded on the top of the knob. Motiograph did it best by having an indicator on the machine telling the operator for center and I think up & down. Making sure the machine is correct in knob position then give proper instruction to operators and / or a note to "Center Frame Projector Before Threading All Shows" or something close. I found some films needed a little tweeking on framing once an a while. ******* Manny, There are 2 screws, 1 film side & 1 gear side on a Century /Westrex machine that will clamp tight to the framing shaft. They are up near the front on 2 halves of a block holding the shaft. Tighten them up. This will lock up the shaft but they will probably figure it out.  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 03-31-2003 04:06 AM                        Brad, these are good ideas, but I am not sure if we really need those functions. Threading is not so difficult, and when operators can`t get even those simple and important steps - framing and loop sizes - right, they should porbably not be allowed to work at the projectors anyway! Especially since those people are also likely to damage the film with their carelessness. At least the function with 1 perforation up or down might not be too difficult to implement. The intermittent is controlled by a programmable frequency converter manufactured by Lenze. I am not familiar with the parameters to program it, but my educated guess would be that it could be programmed for this function. Maybe Richard or Larry of Kinoton America could swing in here and give us their thoughts about that.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 03-31-2003 04:08 AM                     Thanks, Dick. I know just what you're talking about. I will try that and see what happens. By the way... The word "FRAME" engraved in white letters on the big red framing knob on these machines. Alas, when the image is centred, the word "FRAME" does not read straight across. Instead, it is at an angle.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 03-31-2003 06:07 AM                     Richard wrote: quote: E movements have their place ( especially on huge wall to wall screens )and so does the maltese cross I have used FP-30Ds, and older Kinoton machines, 35mm only, I have never used thier 16mm or 70mm ones, and I have never used the electronic models. What are the advantages and disadvantages of them, and when would you select an electronic rather than a mechanical machine, or vica versa. How widely used are the electronic machines, I have seen loads of the mechanical machines, often quite old, but no electronic ones. How does the price compare between a new 'D', and an 'E'?  |  IP: Logged Dan Lyons Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 698 From: Seal Beach, CA Registered: Sep 2002 posted 03-31-2003 01:35 PM                     As an add-on to Stephen's question, I've also wondered about the Kinoton electric projectors. The idea sounds very neat, but I've never seen on in person. How much noise do they make compared to a standard projector? Are they loud or super quiet? Danny  |  IP: Logged

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