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Author Topic: Kinoton PK60D Coolant Needs Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 06-08-2003 01:51 PM                        Here is what the "original" pump - I am not sure if they still install it, I haven`t seen it in a long time - I was referring to looks like: In real life it is metallic blue.  |  IP: Logged John Walsh Film God Posts: 2490 From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way Registered: Oct 1999 posted 06-08-2003 02:47 PM                     Wow.. I don't even want to guess how much that costs....  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-08-2003 05:52 PM                     Lamphouse variances don't make much that much difference in heat eh? I just got back from running a 16mm show on 5KW lamps...try that with most lamphouses and you will get goo coming out of the projector...not so on a Kinoton. The picture that was just posted (above) is the old style LWK. It is similar to Mark's in that it has a radiator with a fan blowing on it to actually cool the water. That is no longer the current Kinoton version...the current one is the LWK-20 and is a little blue brick that holds about 1.5 gallons of coolant (water/lubricant/inhibitor mix). It does a passible job of keeping the system cool, especially with such a small amount of liquid but the damn things are TOO noisy. Steve  |  IP: Logged John T. Moon II Film Handler Posts: 15 From: Las Vegas, NV, USA Registered: May 2003 posted 06-09-2003 09:23 AM                     Even if the LWK-20 is noisy at least you know that it is running. The blue tanks we use are impossible to hear even if you are right next to them with everything off and they are running. The question remains, what is the proper amount of cooling needed in Gallons Per Hour for the Kinoton PK-60D gate using a 5k lamphouse?  |  IP: Logged Larry Shaw Expert Film Handler Posts: 238 From: Boston, MA, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 06-09-2003 12:02 PM                        The exact amount of water flow in this application is not terribly critical. Kinoton assumes its own coolers will be used. Their smallest cooler is rated at 2.0 l/min (.53 gal/min). So any flow of cooled water at or above that will be sufficient. Using non-chilled water is not reccomended, but if done, presumably some higher flow rate wiuld be required, although the value of just heating the water in a tank is questionable. The list price of the LWK-20 cooler is $998, but then again it actually cools water.  |  IP: Logged Bruce McGee Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1776 From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular. Registered: Aug 1999 posted 06-09-2003 05:59 PM                     Mark: The radiator on your unit looks just like the heater core I just installed on my Ford truck. What a good idea! Bruce  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-09-2003 07:49 PM                     Bruce, It is a heater core, can't remember what its from though. Assumming the booth is air conditioned thats about as "hot" as the water gets! Mark  |  IP: Logged Jim Spohn Film Handler Posts: 95 From: Bakersfield, CA, USA Registered: Jan 2003 posted 06-10-2003 02:25 PM                     I use a coolant pump that is rated at 100 GPH and it does a fine job...Jim  |  IP: Logged John T. Moon II Film Handler Posts: 15 From: Las Vegas, NV, USA Registered: May 2003 posted 06-10-2003 06:05 PM                     Thanks all for the great replies! I knew there was some help out there.  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-11-2003 12:19 AM                        Coincidentally, just this afternoon I replaced the tubing on the water cooler on the Century water pumps -- at least it has a decal on the switch box that says Century. They needed replacement because they were never filled with anything but tap water and were all gunked up a variety of organic growth coating them. Couldn't be good for the tubing around the gate. I called a supply house that shall remain nameless and got a price of 7.50 per foot. PER FOOT. I went to a local hardware supply and found the exact same diameter and thickness but with the added advantage of a support webbing that was imbedded on the outside surface. I asked what that was for and the guy said so that it won't bend and cut the flow. It was 39 cents per foot. As far as I could tell, it is identical to the tubing that we were using. Ok, now what's this Glycol mixture? How much water to Glycol are we talking about? Will it stop algae and stuff from attacking the plastic tubes and living in the tank? How about that stuff they use in aquariums to stop unwanted algae growth? These tanks we've been using, by the way, have nothing more than a hefty submersible pump that sits on the bottom. It looks just like the one in my fish tank, only a bit bigger and it has a cap into which you can put a piece of filter material. We dump in ice cubes at the beginning of the evening from the ice maker and the water never even gets luke warm. As for how big a pump is needed -- isn't it all dependent on the size of the hose and the nipples? No matter how big the pump, the water flow will always be limited by the inner diameter of the tube it has to be forced through, no? Yeah, you can get a big pump and that will get the pressure up, but only to a point, after that, something will give -- either the plastic connectors or the tubing itself will just burst, I would think. Frank PS -- Bernard, I was just thinking that very same thing today -- how to get a small ball to float in a tube to show that water is really flowing. The tank has a neon indicator on top, but of course that tells me practically nothing. Thing is, the tube has a rather small inner diameter and you would need to have a strainer in the "flowometer" lest the little ball get up into the projector.  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 06-11-2003 12:53 AM                        Fluid turbulence will usually eat through your piping long before something bursts. So you could think everything was just fine for months before things start to leak.  |  IP: Logged John T. Moon II Film Handler Posts: 15 From: Las Vegas, NV, USA Registered: May 2003 posted 06-11-2003 08:50 AM                     We used 40% Glycol and 60% De-Ionized or Distilled water to prevent the gunk factor. In 1 year we have had no growth or gunk in any tank.  |  IP: Logged Dave Macaulay Film God Posts: 2321 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Apr 2001 posted 06-11-2003 09:06 AM                     There isn't any need for a lot of flow, a huge pump will only cause trouble. Within reason the higher pressure won't be a problem but it's a waste of energy, and a leak changes from a slowly spreading puddle into a shower all over the equipment at higher pressure. Choking off a high capacity pump with a restrictive load (the Simplex gate cooler has some extremely small tubes for example) causes cavitation on the rotor. This can destroy the rotor fairly quickly. Don't use a positive displacement pump like a gear pump, these are made to move a fixed volume of fluid per revolution and the pressure can become high enough to burst hoses or pop off connections with restrictive plumbing. An impeller pump is the way to go. Any fountain or aquarium pump should work. The new type Century coolers are just a blue plastic drum with a submersible pump. The photo shown here looks like a knockoff made from a wine-making carboy and would work the same as the Century model. There is no "cooling", the water gets warmer during use. This works fine for almost any projector, the water gets somewhat warm during a day's shows but cools off again overnight. For special venue projectors or running very hot lamps non-stop you want active cooling (like Kinoton) or a unit with a radiator and fan at least. You don't need to chill the gate. being "hot" isn't a problem - film damage is not an issue until something is quite hot indeed - the film is only there for 1/24th of a second and the image area is going to get mighty warm in that time anyway if you have a hot enough lamp to need water cooling! You want to have the gate cool enough that the base and emulsion won't get hot enough to be soft or sticky as the film moves through. Any gate temperature where you can touch the gate for a second without getting a burn should be OK. The older Century coolers with the pump motor visible on top and the metal tank have a problem with evaporation. The fluid must be almost up to the overflow hole before the pump is actually submerged, so you have to check and fill the things regularly or it's not pumping anything. The pump is happy and quiet, the light is on, and all looks well except there ain't no cooling happening nohow. I've seen this several times, and my conclusion is that if it can go long enough like that for the water to be an inch below the pump without any overheating-related problems, then the system didn't need water cooling anyway. Active cooling or radiator/fan systems have the advantage of a closed coolant system, other than that (and the actual "cooling" if you need it) there isn't a big difference. The open tank ones all get skanky after a while, dust and fungus and who knows what (you DO have a booth washroom, right?) gets into the coolant and coats the hoses, clogs the pipes, builds up disgusting jelly goo on the pump and tank - yuck. Glycol helps a bit but is messy itself. A closed system stays clean. Using a bit of glycol or water-wetter inhibits the fungus stuff, and since very little crap can get in the coolant stays fairly pure. Glycol reduces the cooling ability of water, so we're using it only as a preservative. Active coolers may need glycol to avoid freezing in the chiller unit... otherwise it's a waste of money, messy and poisonous, and an all-round negative IMO. Water-wetter is supposed to improve the cooling ability of pure water. I dunno about that, but it does keep it from getting fungusy and it turns the water a cool pink colour. Only a few ounces per gallon is used so it won't affect the actual thermal performance of water like glycol at 50% does. Closed systems with distilled water and water-wetter don't need any cleaning or water changes, and the hoses stay clear and one can usually see there's flow as some bubbles usually circulate. You can get tiny plastic balls that circulate freely and show that there's flow. Water Wetter  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-13-2003 01:42 PM                        Water Wetter -- now available at Pep Boys auto supply.  |  IP: Logged Bernard Tonks Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 619 From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England Registered: Apr 2001 posted 06-16-2003 11:46 AM                     Frank, There are hundreds of web sites, so these must be easily available almost everywhere. Water Flow Indicators We recommend installing a visual flow indicator on every water circuit to give the operator confirmation, usually by a simple spinning rotor, that water is flowing. Use flow indicators without switches when an interrupted supply will not cause damage or when the component has its own coolant alarm. For water-cooled components critical to the vacuum (diffusion pump, turbo pump) or those possibly damaged by flow failure (e-beam source, sputter gun) use a water switch with the indicator. Suitable for Liquids or Gases Highly Visible Ball in Domed Glass Housing No Parts to Wear Two Material Combinations Available  |  IP: Logged

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