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Author Topic: DTS "glide time" Mark J. Marshall Film God Posts: 3188 From: New Castle, DE, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 06-23-2003 11:15 AM                    My biggest gripe with the DTS is how easy it is for a reel splice to make the unit drop for a second while it tries to figure out what just happened. There should be some intelligence built into the system to see the end of reel 2 coming, and prepare for a smooth transition to the beginning of reel 3, by IGNORING the first reel id it sees after reel 2 knowing that it's probably wrong. I know that's not specifically what you're talking about, but I thought I'd throw that out there. As long as we're talking about DTS fixing things.  |  IP: Logged Karen Hultgren Master Film Handler Posts: 492 From: Agoura Hills, CA, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 06-23-2003 11:30 AM                        Brad, Your auxiliary roller is in the wrong position. It should be pivoted as close to the large center roller as possible without touching. DTS drop-out = You need to have AT LEAST 4 seconds of no timecode for the unit to drop out. Frame-to-frame splices or reel changes will not make a correctly working DTS player drop out. DTS can follow any size edit without dropping out. Karen at DTS khultgren@dtsonline.com  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 06-23-2003 01:58 PM                        quote: My biggest gripe with the DTS is how easy it is for a reel splice to make the unit drop for a second while it tries to figure out what just happened. There should be some intelligence built into the system to see the end of reel 2 coming There are issues with dts sometimes, but I have worked with dozens of dts processors, and I would say that in general, the dts system is almost bullet proof. Especially splices between reels, but also biger edits - dts has no problem at all here. I remember we had a major interlock accident once. There were more than 10 places where the print was stretched for several cm (or inches if you want). To make the print somehow playable before until the arrival of the replacement reel, I had to cut several feet in several places. The dts player took all these hurdles without any problems at all.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 06-23-2003 03:14 PM                     quote: Brad, Your auxiliary roller is in the wrong position. It should be pivoted as close to the large center roller as possible without touching. No it isn't Karen. I've had that roller in every imagineable position possible and not had dropouts. For that matter, every dts screen in town I have been to is set up like that too! It's a ball bearing based roller. Adding an extra 45 degrees of wrap is simply not going to make a difference as I have tried it. The main benefit of it is to ensure that the film doesn't "run-out" of the reader from an improperly adjusted feed roller. If you would try the roller-drag trick you would find a far superior solution to a bouncing feed issue that you are trying to achieve from that roller.  |  IP: Logged Karen Hultgren Master Film Handler Posts: 492 From: Agoura Hills, CA, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 06-23-2003 04:15 PM                        Brad, we have found that positioning the auxilary roller as close to the center roller as possible (without touching) produces the best results. Karen at DTS khultgren@dtsonline.com  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-23-2003 04:21 PM                     I have found the roller angle does make a big difference. The drag method I would hazzard a guess may cause some abrasion of the SRD and SDDS tracks as the roller will be running slower than the film scuffing them from the breaking action  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 06-23-2003 04:49 PM                     On the drag modification, it has never been an issue Gordon. I've played prints for 4-5 months mostly through a modified dts reader like was pictured on the previous page and the SRD will still track 0-2 at the end of the engagement. Same for SDDS. Besides if you read my post carefully enough you would have noticed that I specifically noted that there should not be so much tension as to actually freeze or slow the roller, only enough to take the bounce out.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-24-2003 12:15 AM                     Quote: "For less money than just installing SRD? Know how many SRD units I have seen fail since 1992? None." ________________________________________________________________ Brad, You've got to be kidding!! I think you're the only tech that would claim that statement. I guess you got in a bit(pun intended) too late to experience all the defective power supply modules that Dolby actually went around and replaced themselves(certainly commendable though). Next time you are working on an early DA-20 pull the supply out and check for charred nylon power supply connectors, its 50/50 that you'll find it that way! The last one I found was a little over a year ago. If it is that way, the hell with the connector, just solder the wires right to the power supply PCB. Odd Dolby hasn't figured out that you only need a connector at one end yet. They love plugs, but seem to choose to use something smaller than the current passing through it requires. Also, early DA-20's cannot be upgaded to auto digital with out an expensive CAT 611A interface card replacement.....around 500 bucks...customers gotta have auto digital so all their locations function the same. In early DA-20's and in alot of CP-500's I experienced cat 670 video input card failure many times. I admit that overall they have become very reliable in the past few years though. I will instill that none of my experiences has swayed me away fomr putting them into systems though..... I still install DA-20's on occasion, but DTS is by far the better deal out there for general purpose digital playback, plus The XD player has only made DTS even easier to use in a multiplex situation. The moral is that EVERY system out there has had its share of problems, but fortunately, the two important remaining systems have for the most part cured their problems. Mark P.S. Oops...I forgot all those SRD basement readers that never quite worked too reliably...... many gave up on them and replaced them with 2000.00 penthouses! Ouch! Basement readers seem to be fine now though with the faster optics being used....... Mark  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 06-24-2003 02:41 AM                        DTS isn't a good option at all for art venues (neither is SDDS). In fact, Dolby Digital is the ONLY option. I'd say 95% of all prints have Dolby Digital on them. For art house releases, I'd say maybe 15% of prints have DTS on them and maybe 5% arrive with actual discs. Any art chain stupid enough to buy into DTS gets what they deserve, a digital player that collects dust. Anyway from a multiplex point of view, you want something that will be reliable. Just use the Film-Tech search function and look for "DTS" in the subject title. You will find a bunch of recent threads dealing with reliability issues. Do you want cheap or do you want reliable? Soon DTS will be more expensive than Dolby Digital from what I understand with their new XD10 Turbo or whatever the hell it is called. And like I've said before it uses the SAME timecode and is succeptable to the same dropouts. So unless DTS fixes this fast and good, then there really is no argument anymore. If they do get it fixed, then let the digital sound wars commence again! Also if you must do an emergency interlock, there is no time to wait for the studio to send extra discs. Anyone who copies them for this or similar purposes gets no shame. I'm not sure how copying the discs for ANY reason could cause harm. Just movie industry paranoia.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 06-24-2003 03:39 AM                     Mark, I'll grant you some of the basement readers have issues, but if you bought the Dolby penthouse readers (or the BACP) and not a competing brand's retrofit, there were and still are no real problems. Since there are no basement dts readers built by other companies, I feel your argument is a bit unfair. After I got through the issues with the original Christie basement readers, I haven't had any real problems with them either. You mentioned the "auto-digital" feature via the cat611A card. NONE of my customers want this and I agree. The digital should not automatically kick in and take over (ala dts and sdds) until the projectionist or automation tells it that it is time to commence digital playback. I always disable that on the cat611A cards. This to me is not a valid argument. Besides, if your customers want auto-digital, just change the automation wiring so that it pulses directly into format 10 and if there is no digital data it will just revert to SR and be "auto-digital" from that point on. There you go, free 611A auto-switching for 5 minutes of your time. Surely your rate for 5 minutes per machine is less than $500? Regarding failures, I have had multiple failures on the cat675 card (I think that was the number) on the very first batch of DA10s, but you read correctly that there have been zero failures on DA20s, CP500s or CP650s in my neck of the woods and no power supply failures on anything. The same no-failure rating goes for the penthouse readers except for one cat700 that was purchased used from a closing theater that was received with the arms broken which had seen plenty of abuse (again, not fair to the argument). On the flip side, every single dts system around town has had to have something upgraded or replaced. On the original 2 drive dts units (definitely the most reliable) it was the timecode reader. On the first batch of 6-d units it was a chunk of bad power supplies, multiple changing out of the timecode firmware, then ALL of the drives on every unit failed, a couple of audio boards here and there, a couple of timecode boards here and there and then lots of damaged discs due to the thin cases and recently bad timecode printing. Meanwhile, the SRD systems have been purring along without issues. So yes, Dolby Digital does has a noticeably better track record, at least for me. That being said I will grant you that the design of the dts system is more robust at handling damaged prints than the other two formats, but what my customers want is reliability without hassles, and they are all first-run so damaged prints aren't an issue. Dts started getting a bad rep around here a few years back when drives started failing and only the big chains got free replacements. The little guys got stuck with shelling out hundreds of bucks to replace them with the Teacs. Let's not forget all of these things when comparing the two systems. In the end because of these failures, the dts systems ended up costing more than a Dolby Digital system would have. You must remember to include any refunded ticket or concession money when there was a failure. I'm not bashing the dts system saying that no one should install it, for it IS a good system, but for you to say that it is definitely better than SRD in terms of reliability, that's crazy and just not true in my experience.  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 06-24-2003 03:43 AM                        quote: I forgot all those SRD basement readers that never quite worked too reliably I had lots of problems with SR*D equipment too, but the basement readers never failed (except for one). But Mark is probably referring to other basement readers than those I worked with most (in the Kinoton projectors).  |  IP: Logged Greg Routenburg Expert Film Handler Posts: 178 From: Toronto, ON, Canada Registered: May 2003 posted 06-24-2003 03:50 AM                     Joe is indeed correct about the art houses. Having spoken to a rep from Dolby, alot of sound mixers who are doing the audio for documentaries in particular often try and disuade the directors from mixing in Digital at all. From what he was saying, SR has a quality to it that seems fitting for them. We just recently ran Spellbound at our theatre and it had no Digital whatsoever. Also, apparently the notorious "Bowling for Columbine" sounds worlds better in SR then it does in Digital just because of the way the surounds were mixed for the Dolby Digital track. I'm just going on his word for it mind you as I have never personally listened to the film in both formats to hear the difference. I'd also like to mention that I have never had problems with DTS on Universal prints until after they switched to Technicolor. Everyone has been sighting "Bruce Almighty" and "The Hulk" causing most of the recent problems and they were both released after the change over.  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 06-24-2003 04:07 AM                        quote: I'd say 95% of all prints have Dolby Digital on them. For art house releases, I'd say maybe 15% of prints have DTS on them and maybe 5% arrive with actual discs. That is good to know. We have an arthouse cinema with 4 dts units. I would rather move these to bigger screens in multiplexes and get CP650s for that cinema. Because I remember there was a discussion here some months ago about the sound formats most often used for arthouse films in the US.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-24-2003 07:55 AM                     I have definately had my share of equipment failures from all three Digital manufacturers. Some of the DA-20 failures are minior (Cat. 674 LED board doesn't light all of its LEDs, there have been three in the last 6-months)...some unit disabling...like the Cat. 671. On Dolby and DTS I've had the mysterious drifting lip-sync issue (mid show) So sure one can pick on any of the systems. If I were to advise DTS to update something, I would say the reader(s). In fact, I've said it since 1993. It is the art of simplicity yet I feel it is too simplistic for the job. It doesn't maintain proper control over the film in the scanning area. It should control the film better laterally and ensure smooth/even film speed in the scanning area (read, flywheel). Lastly (and the most complicated part), I'd probably overscan the time-code area on the film and come up with a routine that will lock onto the code, even if it is out of position...so long as it was readable. As to basement readers. I've used Kelmar, Component Engineering and Kinoton. All of the ones we've installed are operating and never a lick of trouble except for the stupid-as-can-be-red-LEDs fading. Steve  |  IP: Logged Dave Macaulay Film God Posts: 2321 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Apr 2001 posted 06-24-2003 08:04 AM                     Going to a timecode generator and shaft encoder avoids dropouts, but it defeats the synchronization in the DTS system. This would be a bad idea IMO... you assume that the track is going to be exactly the same as your assembled print. You'd have to have every frame of film that DTS encoded sound for or the sync will be lost, and for sure any frames cut off the heads and tails would cause sync creep. (I know, none of us cut off frames, but...)  |  IP: Logged

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