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Author Topic: UK student cinema - help! Ken McFall Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 615 From: Haringey, London. Registered: Apr 2001 posted 06-29-2003 02:58 PM                     I have to agree totally with Pete on that. There is nothing wrong as such with the DTS6AD but if you are looking for simplicity and the future you would be better with any of the Dolby units available.... even a CP45 if that was all you could afford. These are relativly simple to add Dolby Digital to at a later date and are sure to be supported for many years. Don't get me wrong I think DTS is an excellent system but it's better suited to a first run show where you can use it all the time. Why pay for something that could easily be sitting doing nothing for most of it's time. I had difficulty getting DTS disks for a first run show so you would find it even harder as the chances of the disks following the prints would be slim to say the least. You also mention only one projector. On another post it was suggested that a two projector installation would be better, in an art house situation in the long run as you are unlikly to have the services of a full time projectionist and a change over show would be easier as many of your shows would be single runs. The time involved with makeing up and breaking down would soon become tirsome for you. If you must go long run then I feel a tower would be the better option as it is quicker to run prints onto and store prints if needed. As for the Vic 5, a great little projector that will give you excellent service and reliability. It does need to be 'listened' to and looked after, changing belts and checking on a regular basis. It has a lot of upgrade potential for basement reader for digital and reverse scan reader for cyan tracks so no problem there. Just make sure it is rebuilt, all bearings changed, new belts and a general strip down and clean. That done you'll have no problem. What lamphouse is going to sit on it? and what rectifier? It does all come down to cash at the end of the day. What sort of long run system have you been quoted for? One thing you may not have budgeted for is getting someone to spend time with you once it's all installed and give some training and pass on experience. It need not cost much but could pay off in the long run.  |  IP: Logged Michael Brown Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1522 From: Bradford, England Registered: May 2001 posted 06-29-2003 03:12 PM                     Can't say I have an experience but: Wouldn't it be easier for novice projectionists (that you get in a student venue) to run with a long play system (i.e a tower) rather than running a 2 projector change over system? I mean, running change-overs must take some skill. Matthew, How many films are you planning to show per week?  |  IP: Logged Ken McFall Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 615 From: Haringey, London. Registered: Apr 2001 posted 06-29-2003 04:51 PM                     The difference is that changovers can be learn quite quickly, whilst making up for long run is much slower, requires more work and is generally more bother for a single show. If you must go long run a tower is the better bet as it's much quicker to make up a print onto it. You can if needed make up directly onto the tower. Its easier to store prints if you have many to run in a short period, I do not like storing prints on platter rings standing against a wall. Towers generally have very little to go wrong with them, especially the Westrex Tower and less chance of scratching a print as there are fewer rollers. Cinemecannica towers are also good but do have more to go wrong with them due to their design and use of clutches etc. Given that the guys, and gals, that will be running the quipment may not have a lot of experience a tower is much easier to get to grips with. Nothing is going to replace some 'experience' but you can reduce some of the potential problems by the choice of equipment. Where do you stop... I suppose there is a very tight budget involved and many decisions already made by now. Whatever equipment is decided upon it is important to make sure the make-up facilities are up to scratch. Good rewinder, splicer, split spools and spare spools in GOOD condition. and just so you know, the budject should take account of the fact that it dosn't stop at the install. It's not a matter of putting it all in and forgetting about it.  |  IP: Logged Mark Hajducki Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 500 From: Edinburgh, UK Registered: May 2003 posted 06-30-2003 01:48 PM                     Given that many of the prints are ex-multiplex they may not have the headers attached anyway, so it will not take that much longer to make up the film for long play showing than for a changeover showing.  |  IP: Logged Lionel Fouillen Expert Film Handler Posts: 230 From: Belgium Registered: Nov 2002 posted 06-30-2003 02:28 PM                     Ken, I'd like to know if you'd better recommend towers "one spool on top of the other" or the shorter system "spools side by side" (example: Kinoton). Also, are towers reliable for 70mm? Thanks  |  IP: Logged Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 06-30-2003 03:29 PM                     quote: Given that many of the prints are ex-multiplex they may not have the headers attached anyway, so it will not take that much longer to make up the film for long play showing than for a changeover showing. Mark I have to disagree. Firstly that's a pretty bold statement to make that multiplex operators habitually do not replace head and tail leaders when making and breaking prints, in my experience this is not the case. Secondly, if the heads and tails are missing, you have no way of positively identifying reels as being what the label on the can claims it to be. Again based on my experience, receiving a print with no leaders on is an operators nightmare, and sorting it out can take forever, certainly way longer than if it had the leaders attached. Lionel, At the risk of starting the 'towers v platter v change overs' debate again (PLEASE NO!). The most common tower design is the double sided with pay off spools at the top, and take up spools at the bottom. Of the two we see here in the UK (Cinemecannica and Westrex) the Westrex 5035 is by far the best. I've installed and played with one Projecsan unit which carries a single pair of spools, one on either side. It handles film gently, just as a well driven Westrex would, it doesn't 'tower', so could be installed where height is a restriction, but does require far more in the way of film guidance to get the film to and from the machine. In my book the more rollers you have to lace the film around, the more chance there is for something to go wrong (mis laced, film jumps off roller etc). So from that point of view the 'up and down' type of tower is better. As for 70mm on a tower, why not? The weight of 14,000' of 70mm would be something to be reckoned with I would think though! Might need to modify the spool shafts and bearing assemblies as I'm not sure that even the Westrex 1/2" shafts would stand up to that.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 07-01-2003 04:47 AM                        quote: Wouldn't it be easier for novice projectionists (that you get in a student venue) to run with a long play system (i.e a tower) rather than running a 2 projector change over system? Make a slight mistake when lacing up a 2,000 foot reel and you've only damaged one reel. Mis-thread a tower or platter path and there goes the whole print. For that reason I'd advise changeover use for student film societies (which by definition are likely to be run by people with minimal projection experience) wherever possible. Yes, changing over is an acquired skill. But so are all the other skills involved in projection...  |  IP: Logged Matthew Sheppard Film Handler Posts: 4 From: Bournemouth, UK Registered: Jun 2003 posted 07-01-2003 06:29 AM                     Whilst having two projectors to do changeovers would be great, it just isn't financially viable. It took 5 years to convince the Union that we needed to move from 16mm to 35mm and then a further 3 years to get the funding.  |  IP: Logged Ken McFall Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 615 From: Haringey, London. Registered: Apr 2001 posted 07-01-2003 09:14 AM                     Pete, the Odeon Marble Arch when it was a single screen used Cinemecannica towers for 70mm. They could do 70mm tower change overs if needed. As for using towers they are easier to directly make up on to if needed, especially the Westrex Tower which was the best tower ever made. I don't approve of making up directly on a tower, or platter for that matter, but if time is a consideration then the facility is there. If the print arrives head out then you make up Top to Bottom and rewind when finished. If it's tail out then you make up Bottom to Top and it's ready to run. For inexperienced projectionists it's much easier for them to get to grips with while learning and easier to correct mistakes. Leo, no equipment made can cope with projectionists being careless... at least with a tower there are usually only two rollers to run over, top and bottom spool shafts. With a single show like this there is NO reason for not checking the show while it's running anyway.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 07-01-2003 11:06 AM                        Agreed - equipment cannot be idiot proofed - but an installation can be designed to minimise the potential for damage caused by mistakes which are made as the result of inexperience and lack of aptitude (as distinct from carelessness). Student film societies (along with arts centres which only screen films irregularly) are most prone to this because the people who run them are not usually professional, trained projectionists. Of course some student projectionists develop to be every bit as good as a West End chief... but they'll leave after three or four years, and may be replaced by someone who struggles to understand the basic technical concepts (e.g. the principle of intermittent film movement) involved in lacing up and running a film. Therefore if it is possible (and I take the point that in Matthew's case, it isn't) to design the projection room installation in a way which minimises the potential risk of error, then IMHO this should be done. Which would you prefer - a slightly late changeover or a deep emulsion tramline all the way through a 15,000 foot print of an arthouse title? With this objective in mind I agree that a tower is the next best option if two projectors are impossible due to the simplicity of the film path.  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 07-01-2003 01:38 PM                     [ Begin irrelevent aside on changeovers vs. long play devices for student film groups. ] I'm not sure that I agree with the prevailing concensus here. I'm involved in the management of a student film group here at MIT, and I was last year's Projection Director (elected 1-year term position). We run changeover here exclusively, and to compensate for issues of inexperience, we generally have two projectionists present for most shows. I can't remember the last time we had any film damage due to projectionist error (there was a takeup reel failure though...). While I wouldn't want to convert our setup off of changeovers, I'm not so sure it is really the way to go for new people starting out. Yes, a single misthread will damage only one 2k reel; but a projectionist has to do a lot more threading, and is much more likely to make threading errors. If it is simply an issue of threading up once at the beginning of the show, it is much easier to make sure that threading is double- and triple-checked. Further, changeovers certainly are a skill. An audience can be terribly unforgiving to a theatre with regularly bad presentation, and if you cannot produce good changeovers, it's easy to see your audience not coming back, or rapidly dwindling. Breaking even is often a big issue for student film groups. Also, not everyone is good under pressure, and changeovers are certainly pressure in a way that very little else is. In the ideal world, if you can build an organization of competant, quality, student projectionists that is self-perpetuating, then running changeovers is a good idea and practical. Otherwise, I am skeptical. [ End aside. ] With respect to DTS, I would be very wary of assuming what applies to others necessarily applies to you, and I would not assume the world is unchangeable (this is a very optimistic viewpoint, I know). I think it is certainly appropriate to have some conversations with DTS UK about what guarantees they can make to you; after all, they want your business (indirectly, of course), so they should convince you of the viability of their format. It's also appropriate to have conversations with distributors, film exchanges, and booking agencies about disc availability. Problems getting DTS discs is the sort of thing you ought to be able to address. I recognize things are radically different across the pond, but we have very little trouble getting DTS discs on a consistent basis. Maybe once or twice per term they don't show up with the print and serious efforts and phone calls have to be made, but they generally turn out successfully. Anyhow, best of luck! --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 07-01-2003 01:52 PM                     This doesn't help Matthew's query, but if it were my choice I would definitely put in a changeover system that was limited to 2000' reels. Changeovers really aren't that hard. In fact, I'd say showing someone how to do changeovers is easier than teaching them how to build up a print properly without damaging it, plus there is the whole thing on having to teach the students how to work a platter/tower. With a reel to reel setup there is less to have to learn except for the timing of the changeover, which in every instance I have trained someone took less effort than just learning how to thread the projector properly. There is just more to screw up with a platter/tower. I know lots of people will disagree with me here, but I personally have always felt that a platter/tower requires more training and skill to operate properly than a changeover setup does. For that reason as well as the fact that most student cinemas will only run the film a couple of times, changeovers would be the way to go for a student cinema.  |  IP: Logged Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 07-01-2003 03:26 PM                     John, you can have a conversation with DTS UK all you like, it'll get you nothing! The line I and my customers have been given is to the effect that DTS only make the equipment, they have no control over the media. Ok so you talk to the distributors. I have seen written replies to requests for DTS discs from many distributors to the effect that they do not have DTS discs for 'xxx' title, and have no intention of getting any. The distributors who do support DTS here seem to have limited numbers of discs and those go firstly to the big chains for first run use. I can count on one finger the number of times I've seen DTS discs with a second run feature. Don't get me wrong I like DTS, both the equipment and the format, but I wouldn't even contemplate it for a second run operation, such as a student film society. As for the great 'towers v platters v change overs' debate, please, it's been done to death in a good few threads, let's let it slip away peacefully!  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 07-01-2003 04:07 PM                        Brad writes: quote: I know lots of people will disagree with me here, but I personally have always felt that a platter/tower requires more training and skill to operate properly than a changeover setup does. I agree entirely. Watching for the dots and pressing the appropriate button is simply a matter of hand/eye co-ordination. Getting the threading sequence right on a platter or setting the tension correctly on a tower (not to mention resisting the temptation to rewind too fast) both involve understanding the underlying mechanical principles. ...and John writes: quote: ...but a projectionist has to do a lot more threading, and is much more likely to make threading errors. But the converse of that is that (s)he will build up more experience more quickly (i.e. lacing up a projector six times per show rather than only once) which will thus reduce the likelihood of him or her making threading errors. Point taken about unforgiving audiences, but changeovers are not rocket science - just a matter of practice.  |  IP: Logged Michael Harlow Expert Film Handler Posts: 170 From: Faversham, Kent, UK Registered: Jul 2002 posted 07-01-2003 04:12 PM                     Just to add to this DTS debate.. I run a mixture of first and second run films here and also have DTS and i have only had a problem with not getting discs once in 2 years...  |  IP: Logged

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