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Author Topic: Need help with questions about the silent movie era Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-20-2003 12:22 PM                        Thank you everyone for all the info. I knew I could count on you guys. (This is an interesting topic too...I've always wanted to know more about the silent era myself.)  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-20-2003 12:44 PM                     Most of the silent machines such as motiograph and powers had 3 blade shutters on them I usually use programable motor controllers (inverters) to program different speeds to the smae standard projector  |  IP: Logged Robert E. Allen Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1078 From: Checotah, Oklahoma Registered: Jul 2002 posted 08-20-2003 03:18 PM                     "Sorry Bob...I've got to jump on you for that one...where did you get your "information" that silent films ran at 16fps?" From my dad who began his career in 1916 hand-cranking films in a 6x8 "sweatbox" suspended from the ceiling of an opera house in Michigan and remained a projectionist until just before his death in 1977. I followed him into the business starting in 1945.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 08-20-2003 04:04 PM                     As to 18fps...I've installed several that had a nominal silent speed of 18fps...home super-8 was certainly 18fps. Again, based on many silent films I've set, I can only think of one that was around 16fps. I have a friend that has an extensive collection...I'll inquire into this. Steve  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 08-20-2003 07:12 PM                    Could this be a case of regional differences? The cameras were probably cranked mostly at 16 fps. Maybe in some places it was common to crank the projector at 16 for fairly realistic speed so that only those shots that were specifically undercranked on photography were speeded up whereas other places perhaps routinely cranked at 18 so that everything was just slightly speeded up. I'd like to take this opportunity to give a plug for our own excellent Silent Film Society of Chicago which sponsors screenings throughout the year but also each summer has a festival called The Silent Summer with showings on 6 Fridays in a row in a wonderful old Rapp & Rapp "atmospheric" theatre, the Gateway.  |  IP: Logged Martin Brooks Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 900 From: Forest Hills, NY, USA Registered: May 2002 posted 08-20-2003 08:19 PM                        I'm almost positive that my old Bell & Howell (1940s era) 16mm projector runs on the silent setting at 18fps. And I'm pretty sure that when I studied film history at NYU in the 1970s, they ran silent 16mm prints at 18fps.  |  IP: Logged William Hooper Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1879 From: Mobile, AL USA Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-21-2003 02:33 AM                        I'm surprised Leo Entickap isn't in on this! 16-a-second was the early Lumiere speed for cameras, from the 1895 camera into the mid-teens. http://www.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004470;p=1 At that time & later, camera speeds were varying & increasing. As the Kevin Brownlow article on David Pierce's site shows, by 1925 camera speeds were up to 19 fps, that's a visible hop from 16 fps! Projectionists recieved instructions with the films to run them at speeds that were about 4 to 5 fps faster than camera speed. Brownlow's article really is the one with the answers you want: http://www.cinemaweb.com/silentfilm/bookshelf/18_kb_2.htm Clive Tobin has a fast summary of amateur format camera speeds at http://www.tobincinemasystems.com/page29.html "16mm was introduced in 1923. The early home movie cameras ran at 15 or 16 FPS. With the advent of sound in the 1930's, commercial 16mm film began to be exposed at 24 FPS which is still the standard for sound or serious film today. In the mid-1950's some camera manufacturers started suggesting that personal films be shot at 18 FPS." My 1952 Kodak Cine-Photoguide for 8mm & 16mm home movie cameras specifies the speed of the cameras as 16 fps.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 08-21-2003 10:24 AM                        Kodak has an on-line "Chronology of MP Films": http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/about/chrono1.shtml Kodak introduced cellulose triacetate "safety" base for motion picture films in 1948, but Kodak 35mm nitrate film was still used until about 1952. In 1949, Kodak won an Academy Award for developing safety film. Kodak always used safety film for small gauge motion picture formats like 16mm, that were used at home.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 08-21-2003 11:28 AM                        quote: I'm surprised Leo Entickap isn't in on this! Steve Guttag said pretty much all there is to say. All I'd add is that the intended projection speed of some late Hollywood silents went up to 24, especially during the crossover period. Yet more suggested reading: Kevin Brownlow, 'Silent Films: What Was the Right Speed?' in Sight and Sound, vol. 49, no. 3 (Summer 1980), pp. 164-7. Projection speeds gradually increased after the end of WWI, because the larger auditoria encouraged a move from three-blade to two blade shutters to maximise light output (hence increased film speed to reduce flicker). quote: Kodak introduced cellulose triacetate "safety" base for motion picture films in 1948, but Kodak 35mm nitrate film was still used until about 1952. According to my sources, Kodak discontinued all nitrate production in February 1950. But presumably it took some time for existing stocks to be exhausted, and of course 'legacy' nitrate prints remained in use for a lot longer. I can't remember where I got this from, but I think it was trade press. [Shameless plug alert] The references are in my article 'The Film Industry's Conversion from Nitrate to Acetate' in the Roger Smither book mentioned in an earlier post in this thread. Please let me know if you'd like a PDF version of the manuscript.  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 08-21-2003 12:49 PM                     PDFs in the manuals section, Leo! --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Gerard S. Cohen Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 975 From: Forest Hills, NY, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 08-21-2003 02:13 PM                     Steve suggested, "Could this be a case of regional differences?" An Indian gentleman (now 98 years old) told me that when he was a boy the cameramen cranked while humming "God save our gracious King (or Queen)" to maintain a steady newsreel speed with 8 to 1 gearing. When fitted with normal gearing,(as with my "pancake" Akeley cameras), the Beethoven melody which children satirize as "The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out", a much more arm-exhausting tempo, was needed. Gerard  |  IP: Logged Tao Yue Expert Film Handler Posts: 209 From: Princeton, NJ Registered: Apr 2001 posted 08-21-2003 02:57 PM                        Thanks, Bill, for the info about the Paramount library. Googling a bit, I found at http://archives.studio.universalstudios.com/timeline1936.html: quote: 1958. In December, MCA purchases Paramount Studios’ pre-1950 sound film library for $50 million, the richest television syndication deal to date. So that explains why Paramount still owns their silent films.  |  IP: Logged Pete Evans Film Handler Posts: 11 From: Church Stretton, Shropshire, UK Registered: Aug 2003 posted 08-21-2003 05:40 PM                     When I worked at The National Film Theatre in the '70's they were licenced to run nitrate prints and had a substantial collection in the vaults. The projectors (Vic 8's) had fire extinguishers fitted after a fire distroyed one mech! Silent prints were run, if I remember rightly we altered the optical centre of the lens to cater for the full frame (no soundtrack). As to speed, prints were run in advance and the machine speed set up by eye, what looked right, prior to screening.....I can't remember what make the speed controllers were. Whether or not the NFT still runs nitrate I'm not sure, as when funds permitted new safety prints were being made due to the unstable nature of nitrate. I remember seeing at least a couple of features distroyed due to being too unstable for duplication.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 08-21-2003 06:45 PM                    If you have film that is shrunken but otherwise ok is it possible to project it using special sprockets and if so who makes them?  |  IP: Logged Bill Gabel Film God Posts: 3873 From: Technicolor / Postworks NY, USA Registered: Jan 2002 posted 08-21-2003 08:08 PM                     Heres a good site on the web for Silent films info. http://www.silentera.com/index.html  |  IP: Logged

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