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Author Topic: CIR splicers Peter Hall Master Film Handler Posts: 314 From: London, UK Registered: Dec 2000 posted 09-13-2003 07:58 AM                        I too agree with Brian on this one. In the UK almost 100% of sites use CIR - try switching to Numade and the sites moan like hell. In the states it seems the tables are turned, with one big exceptiopn - try to introduce change and everyone moans like hell. Maybe everyone moans like hell anyway ! I've grown up with CIR and like them - best feature is that if (when ?) you drop one it's fairly easy to rebuild. Others have grown up on Numade or even bottles of cement and a couple of rewinder nuts and all love their own method. But I do feel that anyone who universally slags off a product that they haven't got to grips with is perhaps a little out of their field of expertise - if the CIRs are no good and everyone (say 3000 screens) in the UK uses them then why do we not have massive instances of films breaking ?  |  IP: Logged Ken McFall Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 615 From: Haringey, London. Registered: Apr 2001 posted 09-13-2003 10:42 AM                     As Peter says, in the UK its virtually 100% usage of CIR's. I agree that the adjustable splicers are a menace and should not be used in commercial cinemas as the projectionsists just don't know how to adjust them correctly. Brian is quite correct in that the film MUST have no stress induced on it by the registration pins. Any overlap is to be provided for by the cutting block adjustments. Once the cutter is set you always cut the film from one side only, normally from the left, giving you exactly the amount of overlap you intended. As for not trimming the tape edges, this is down to the blades not being set correctly, or being worn or not keeping tension on the tape as you puch the cutter down. The same applies to the squares of tape from the perforators. Regular cleaning of the punches and making sure you have a layer of tape over the punch holes has always cured the problem for me.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-13-2003 11:20 AM                     On the issue of the punchings not being removed and also torn ragged tape edges In almost every case the splicer has had the hole in the matrix cleaned out and not tape across the matrix If one reads the manual it says there is to be 2 layers of tape left across the matrix and the the holes in the matrix should not be cleaned out as the punchings are to adhere to the old ones still in the matrix Which is one reason a new one takes some time to wear in  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 09-13-2003 04:20 PM                     Someone send me over a CIR in what would be considered "perfect alignment and working order" and loan it to me for 2 weeks and I will do a re-review. However I have seen far too many CIRs and not one of them made an acceptable splice to my standards. (I have a feeling the reason so many people in the UK see the CIRs is because of the price, for we all know "cheaper is always better".) I also find it ridiculous that two layers (or even one) of splicing tape must be left on the block to supposedly prevent the tape punches from retracting. The Neumade does not require this practice and never has the kind of tape perf issues that plagues every CIR. Someone please answer why that is.  |  IP: Logged Dan Harris Film Handler Posts: 86 From: Bristol, UK Registered: Jun 2003 posted 09-13-2003 04:38 PM                     Of the 4 I've got here, two are the "special" design with adjustable pins (supplied by Sound Associates when we opened) and two have the standard fixed pins (1 from Jacro, 1 I rescued from a closed site). The standard design is far superior in operation to the special one, especially for a multiplex operation, but I suspect thats because every time someone uses an adjustable one they appear to have been readjusted. I do find that a lot of tape builds up around between the back of the blade and the plate, and down the holes of the cutting matrix, which does have to be removed regularly. I have another one of the adjustable ones which is currently lying in pieces (some salvaged) on my desk waiting to be rebuilt. Im going to rebuild it, set it up correctly, and use it just for myself for a while. I'll report back what I think! As Peter says, if you do drop one they are very easy to rebuild (OK, so I once left one resting on a plate as I started the film!) and the only component I've ever had break on one was the handle.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-13-2003 04:44 PM                     Brad said"I also find it ridiculous that two layers (or even one) of splicing tape must be left on the block to supposedly prevent the tape punches from retracting. The Neumade does not require this practice and never has the kind of tape perf issues that plagues every CIR. Someone please answer why that is" It is ridiculous to expect a product to preform when its design peramiters are not met. And if they chose to design it that way so be it Also I believe the european price on a neumade is cheaper than CIR at least it is in canada  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 09-13-2003 04:47 PM                     Gordon, you should not assume. I remember there being tape on the CIRs at Joe's theater back a few years ago when that review was written. Upon removing the tape, the performance did not get better or worse. About a year ago you made a stink about the tape over the holes on the forum. Having access to two almost-new CIRs at the time, I went in and again put tape across the plate and still no benefit. Now can someone answer my query?  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 09-13-2003 06:06 PM                        I can answer that, Brad. The answer is: "Because the CIR splicer sucks". Putting a layer of tape down doesn't seem to make it any better. Well maybe it does, but it still sucks ass. If CIR's are so great, why do I get a better splice from the Neumade (Japanese build) EVERY single time? Do the CIR's need readjustment between each and every splice? Am I simply making the splice wrong? Does it take a rocket scientist to make a splice since obviously I can't make a good one with a CIR? Experience using splicers speaks volumes and in my experience, CIR always loses.  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 09-13-2003 06:32 PM                  None of yous know what you're talking about. I always use my Maier-Hancock 1635 hot splicer for ALL my important prints. Both acetate and poly. >>> Phil  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-13-2003 06:52 PM                        Umm...Phil...how do you use a cement splicer for polyester prints? I have an M-H 16/35 splicer. It works nicely for repairs to acetate prints and makes a nice paperweight/doorstop as well. As for the CIR--I've worked with them (and own the 16mm model) and would agree that the Neumade is far superior. Having said that, the CIRs that I have used all seem to make "decent" splices if the blades are kept clean. Considering that even the "cheap" splicers are expensive, it just makes sense to me to spend slightly more and buy the best (the Neumade) rather than to try to save a few pennies by purchasing an inferior model. Most theatres in the US do indeed seem to chosen the Neumade model. For those who like the CIR--why do you prefer it to the Neumade?  |  IP: Logged Gerard S. Cohen Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 975 From: Forest Hills, NY, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 09-13-2003 06:58 PM                     What I find hard to get used to with the CIR is pulling the tape AWAY from the operator, with the roll of tape in front, blocking access and view to the splice being made. That defies the normal Push--Away; Pull--Toward motion that holds in every other aspect of human endeavor. Therefore I feel clumsy using the CIR, while the Neumade feels natural. Then too, when pushing down on the lever, unless the operator is directly in line with the splicer, there is a tendancy of the CIR splicer to overturn sideways, whereas the larger footprint and D-handle of the Neumade stays put. Lastly, I'll admit that if you spin the platter without removing the splicer, the neumade handle is likely to bend or break when it hits the floor, causing a $90 charge for a new handle, whereas the CIR might sail across the room unbroken. The CIR is small and light enough to be carried in a pocket of jeans or cargo pants, but I still prefer the D-handle for transporting the NeumadeSS35.  |  IP: Logged Brian Guckian Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 594 From: Dublin, Ireland Registered: Apr 2003 posted 09-13-2003 08:05 PM                     Brad, with reference to your question re. why the CIR has tape perf issues and the Neumade doesn't, could it be that the Neutaper punch and die are of a slightly different design that is somehow more forgiving? I've looked at the exploded drawing of the 35-SS on their website and the punch actually looks very similar (with the vee cuts?) but I can't be sure. Is it also possible that the stability of the Neutaper's wider base and D-handle, as Gerald mentions, means there is relatively little force exerted when making a splice, thus eliminating any possibilty of damage to the film? (I've seen people really slam those CIRs!). Unfortunately I don't have access to a Neutaper here, and worse, I don't think anyone will part with their CIRs to do your re-review! (I'm not lucky enough to have my own). But I will try. I still assert that a properly lined up CIR is trouble-free. But it seems the Neutaper gives better results with a lot less maintenance. I wouldn't mind trying one out. They're not readily available over here AFAIK.  |  IP: Logged Jeff Klump Film Handler Posts: 22 From: Austin, Texas, USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 09-14-2003 03:29 AM                    We have 3 CIR Specials. I will agree that the adjustable pins are a good idea in some regards, but in the hands of a projectionist who is not used to it bad splices occur. It certainly is an aquired skill on using them properly. I couldn't ever go back to neumade.  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 09-14-2003 04:22 AM                        Jeff - a projectionist who can`t figure out how to use the adjustable pins (it is really not so difficult to understand) to make a neat splice shouldn`t handle the print in the first place and will make bad splices with any equipment. Funny - I just wanted to know which dealer has them and I stir up a quasi-religious debate about splicers. I have no general complaint about the Neumade splicers. They do seem a bit less robust than the CIRs which you find practically everywhere in Europe. So I wanted to make a comparison about pricing. Making a good splice is no problem with either - it depends on how careful you work, not on the splicer.  |  IP: Logged Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 09-14-2003 04:30 AM                     Micheal, all major US dealers carry the CIR product due to their association with either J & R or Goldberg which is owned by the same parent owner. Some dealers do not like to deal with Goldberg. Len D Enterprises of Florida also distributes the parts.  |  IP: Logged

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