Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » The X-curve for theatres (Page 3)

 
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: The X-curve for theatres
Matt Zeiner
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 146
From: Windsor, CT USA
Registered: Sep 2003


 - posted 09-26-2003 04:22 PM      Profile for Matt Zeiner   Email Matt Zeiner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
calibrated. deal?

 |  IP: Logged

Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-04-2003 12:11 PM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark said "Unfortunately you are only looking at a snapshot of the response of the speakers and room with the RTA, as most speakers change in response and distortion quite dramatically as power levels increase beyond about 1/4 of rated power".

It is indeed interesting that we spend so much time and energy worrying about frequency response and distortion in audio electronics when, given the physical nature of loudspeakers, logic would suggest that they would be the most significant contributors to distortion. However I don't recall ever seeing distortion figures quoted in any of the speaker manufacturers' data sheets. A quick check of the spec sheet for JBL's current 3 way cinema system makes only passing reference to distortion (something like "extremely low distortion"). It is almost as if the distortion is so insignificant that it is not worth quoting figures for.

So in your experience Mark, what degree of distortion are we really talking about here and where or how have you obtained such information on typical cinema loudspeaker systems? Also what degree of variation in frequency response with output power are we talking about?

 |  IP: Logged

Mark Seaton
Film Handler

Posts: 7
From: Glenview, IL, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 10-07-2003 02:03 PM      Profile for Mark Seaton   Author's Homepage   Email Mark Seaton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
It is indeed interesting that we spend so much time and energy worrying about frequency response and distortion in audio electronics when, given the physical nature of loudspeakers, logic would suggest that they would be the most significant contributors to distortion.
A very astute and dead on observation Ray. As an extreme example, consider that if any electronic device had the characteristics of common loudspeakers with respect to distortion and the ability to preserve a waveshape, they would likely be deemed BROKEN! That said, remember that marketing departments want you to focus on improvements they can sell you now. There was a time when heads of major speaker manufacturers would boastfully state "there is no need for speaker response below 70Hz" where 6 months to a year later they would be announcing a new subwoofer which extended lower. Of course no one would ever need lower bass than this! [Roll Eyes]

quote:

However I don't recall ever seeing distortion figures quoted in any of the speaker manufacturers' data sheets. A quick check of the spec sheet for JBL's current 3 way cinema system makes only passing reference to distortion (something like "extremely low distortion"). It is almost as if the distortion is so insignificant that it is not worth quoting figures for.

Good marketing work on their part. In fact the opposite is true. Distortion is bad enough that they don't want you to see the numbers. We are so used to seeing miniscule distortion figures on electronics spec sheets that single and double digit distortion numbers would scare people.

What is more complicating is that direct correlation of distortion to what we hear is a complex and dynamic matter. That is not to say that distortion does not matter, but it is akin to saying two speakers with +/-3dB response over the same bandwidth will sound the same. 99 times out of 100 you need more information. Distortion figures give insight as to what happens at dynamic levels. Distortion is also not percieved the same at all frequencies. We are more sensitive to particular types of distortion, as well as distortion at different frequencies due to our hearing sensitivity and masking.

Making one example, we are very sensitive in the 2-6kHz region. Not suprisingly any distortion products falling in this region can be quite objectionable and will greatly increase the percieved loudness of the system. In loudspeakers the most distortion is found in the 2nd to 5th harmonics, particularly the 2nd and 3rd. This suggests that we want to keep distortion very low in the 400Hz to 3kHz range. It is a bit ironic that looking at music and soundtracks, this range commonly sees the greatest energy over a longer time span. If you've ever noticed that a more powerful speaker yeild much less ear fatigue when played at the same signal levels, this explains why.

quote:

So in your experience Mark, what degree of distortion are we really talking about here and where or how have you obtained such information on typical cinema loudspeaker systems? Also what degree of variation in frequency response with output power are we talking about?

Distortion is an interesting matter to examine. The large majority of distortion is tied to increasing excursion in drive units, with the remainder typically caused by extreme intensities of the air in the throat of mid & high frequency horns, or by port turbulence and choking off at low frequencies. All of these effects are limiting/compression effects, somewhat analagous to saturation of an analog tape, or overdriving of an amplifier. One important factor to remember is that once a speaker is overdriven to distortion, anything being produced at the same time by the device will also be distorted. So even if a loudspeaker may have maybe 1% distortion at relatively high levels in the middle of its range, if a signal at its low end drives it to distortion, that 1% distortion figure is gone as any signal present will be similarly distorted.

So far as the distortion levels we typically listen to, most direct radiating subwoofers I have measured reach 5-10% distortion at less than 50W of input, many times with as little as 10W. There certainly are some which will behave much better than others, but at realistic playback levels it is common to see the better direct radiators at a few percent distortion. This is typically in the 105-115dB @1m range. Consider that most cinemas are about 10m deep to the center, and that is 20dB lower than at 1m. I have measured our bass horns as well as a few others and typically distortion is 1/5-1/10th that of direct radiating subwoofers. Where we see the most difference between products is in the onset of distortion. It is not uncommon in many prosound applications where subs are driven at levels resulting in 15-25% distortion.

In main speakers we still have similar problems. At modest levels you will find better speakers with ~0.5% distortion over some bandwidth. Quite often speakers operate yeilding distortion in the 1-5% range. 1% distortion at say 110dB at 1m would be described by most listeners as fairly clean. Certain horns have some interesting distortion mechanisms which show up at moderate levels and higher due to high intensity in the throat, often referred to as "throat distortion."

We have, and you can EQ two different speakers to have almost identical frequency response yet you will still hear the signature of any distortion in the systems. A horn which "honks" badly will still retain that character even after EQing.

So far as level variations, this is mostly due to power compression. As you push more power through a voice coil or diaphram, the wire heats up. As commonly used metals heat up, the resistance increases, which reduces the amount of power delivered to the coil, and hence power compression. Note that many of todays very high power drivers achieve much of this power handling by withstanding much higher temperatures before glues melt and things deform. JBL did a study a few years back which actually proved that at some very high power level you can push more power into some drivers, and because of the heating and resistance rise, you actually get LESS output. To put this in real terms, if the resistance doubles, power halves, resulting in 3dB of power compression.

In the ideal when you increase the signal/power by XdB, you expect to see the speakers get XdB louder. Above about 1/4 rated power for many speakers, this no longer holds true. What you see in measuring a speaker is that this effect is frequency dependent, depending on the design. This effect is seen both from heat as well as from overdriving of a speaker in terms of excursion. Subwoofers are easy examples as they are less complicated devices operating at long wavelengths, but a good example can often be seen in vented boxes where measuring the response at increasing power levels shows significant changes in the shape of the low end roll off. To varying degrees similar effects occur at midbass and midrange frequencies as well.

This got quite lengthy, but I hope someone finds it of interest.

Enough for one post... [Wink]

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-13-2003 12:00 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ray,

There was actually a published article on the JBL 5674 3-way speakers and their distortion components (based on order) to show the superiority of the 3-way system over "antiquated" 2-way designs.

I'm pretty sure it was published in the SMPTE (and possibly other trade magazines)...I'm sure John P can provide the links are methods to obtain the article...he is so good at such fact-finding.

Steve

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 10-13-2003 08:49 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I'm sure John P can provide the links are methods to obtain the article...he is so good at such fact-finding.

Steve must think I am just a librarian! [Wink]

The paper is "Improvements in Motion Picture Sound: The Academy's New Three-Way Loudspeaker Systems" by John Eargle, M. Mayfield, and David Gray, SMPTE Journal, July 1997, Volume 106, page 464.

Here are some links:

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/cinema/cinedsgn.pdf

http://www.aes.org/journal/sample_issue/JAES_V50_11_PG954.pdf

http://www.aes.org/sections/la/meetingnotices/sept_97.pdf

http://www.smpte.org/members_only/library/indexes/ (SMPTE Members only)

http://www.doctorproaudio.com/doctor/bookstore.htm

 |  IP: Logged

Kevin Wale
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 167
From: Guymon, OK USA
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted 10-14-2003 07:35 PM      Profile for Kevin Wale   Email Kevin Wale   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm a big time "use your ears" believer.

Every mic is different. Every analyzer is different.

Something else that people tend to overlook is speaker placement. Move the cabinet an inch and it will change the curve. I have also wondered about speaker bases commonly in use today. Most I have seen lately are metal. Thin metal at that. When you tap on them, they resonate. Instant distortion in any frequency range that is sympathetic to the metal's resonation.

The screen it'self by virtue of even being there is automatic distortion, holes or no holes. So, what distortions are acceptable and able to be worked around and which ones are damaging to the presentation? Obviously the screen is such a low amount of distortion that 1 in a million people might be able to hear the difference with the screen up and with it down on the same settings.

My next question then comes to this. What speakers currently yield the least amount of distortion? If the JBL's have what has been said is a significant amount of distortion(despite thier claims that it is very low), what are the options?

Back on the x curve...

Obviously different parts of a movie are at different volume levals. When I record or mix live sound, I use compressors, limiters, and parametric eq to make things sound as consistant as possible at the various volume levals. I think it's something like at every 10 dbs certain midrange frequencies begin doubling to the human ear's perception. An eq curve that works at 70 dbs ceases to be effective at 90 dbs.

So far, changing the curve automatically(morphing between) isn't possible in real time. Or is it? I know theoretically how it could be done, but I certainly haven't the knowledge or technical skill to even begin. Volume sensitive switching is being employed in lighting, so why not sound?

I don't know if any of that makes sense... I'm just thinking out loud more than anything but it seems to me that the problems are not only needing more mics to measure but also more measurements at different volumes. The main reason biggere auditoriums need the xcurve modified is because they require more volume to fill the room. More volume means the eq is percieved differently by the ear(espeically midrange and hense spoken dialogue). That in itself implys that the movie's different volumes would idealy need a different curve too. Correct?

 |  IP: Logged

Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-14-2003 07:43 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It doesn't need more volume to fill a large room just more power or higher efficiency of speaker
Eargle and several others have published many papers on the issue of the Theile Small parameters on direct radiator designed speaker cabinets and also the design of crossovers for them

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.