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Author Topic: Film Gaurd Scratched a print? Mark J. Marshall Film God Posts: 3188 From: New Castle, DE, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 09-26-2003 08:28 AM                    It's not the Film Guard, I think we all agree on that. But I've seen projectors with rollers not spaced far enough apart to allow for the addition of the cleaner which resulted in the print getting stressed or twisted in a wierd way when the film cleaner is added. In fact, sometimes the film would eventually come off a roller when the cleaner was added. When I asked the projectionists there how often they clean their prints, they said they don't because it scratches the film. Post some pics of your projector setup too. Specifically the film path around the cleaner. Mark  |  IP: Logged Edward Jurich Master Film Handler Posts: 305 From: Las Vegas USA Registered: Jul 2003 posted 09-27-2003 09:18 AM                     I had a scratching problem that finally turned out to be that when the failsafe roller was installed at the takeup, it was mounted "out of line" with the take up roller in the projector. As a result, the film would at times jump out of the roller groove and put a scratch on the one side. After a few runs, the film would have several scratches. Since I realigned the failsafe with some washers, there have been no more scratches. Someone mentioned cleaning film by hand. I've cleaned daters by hand with film cleaner. They are short enough to allow rolling them back and forth to get the excess cleaner off.  |  IP: Logged Ken Lackner Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1907 From: Atlanta, GA, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 09-27-2003 10:49 AM                     quote: What print was this? The sound drum residue problem is a thing of the past. It doesn't affect current release prints, but was noted in the instructions for completeness. Why is this a thing of the past? How far in the past?  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-27-2003 12:14 PM                        I've been using FG for over a year and have not noticed any sound drum residue.  |  IP: Logged Paul G. Thompson The Weenie Man Posts: 4718 From: Mount Vernon WA USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 09-27-2003 12:34 PM                     Mark, those individuals that won't make the film path should take a good look at what they are doing. I have seen some weird paths also....and and most of those can be corrected without spending anything more than what it costs to buy a cup of coffee. One way out is to mount the film cleaner on the platter mast if there is insufficient room between the top of the projector and the ceiling. If the bracket that comes with the film cleaner is used and there is sufficient room for the the guidance hardware between the top of that thing and the ceiling, I don't think there is any excuse for having a weird film path that would facilitate the film derailing a roller.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-27-2003 01:09 PM                     So, scratching doesn't occur when the cleaner is not being used, no? Same projector, same film, same everything else but the film cleaner? If so the answer seems clear that one of two things is the problem. First, the tension on the film may be too tight, causing excess friction and scratching the film. Second, mounting the film cleaner may alter the film path, causing it to rub somewhere it's not supposed to. If you're using Strong platters, I think the film tension theory is eliminated unless you're seriously misthreading it. If that's true then you'd be seeing scratching all the time, thus this whole issue would become moot. Now, it is quite easy to have a clear film path in "normal" conditions and a "bad" film path when the cleaner is added. Where in the system is your cleaner located? Platter? Projector-mounted? Let's assume projector mount, for the sake of discussion. (Same principles apply for platters. Just transfer the ideas.) Thread up some old film without the cleaner. You don't have to run the machine. Just a hunk of an old trailer will do. Follow the film as it comes off the upper roller above the projector and turns downward, into the machine. Notice that it makes a "compound bend". Not only does it make a 90º turn, going from horizontal to vertical but it makes another 90º turn as it "barrell rolls" going into the projector. This makes the alignment of that upper roller pretty tricky to get right. The position of this roller is KEY to having a clear film path. Fidget that roller around until the film goes perfectly flat over the center of the roller and doesn't hit against the keeper(s) or the flanges. You're likely to find that the roller will have to be bent into a very odd looking position... kind of pointing sideways and down a bit. Once you have the path clear for NO cleaner, install the cleaner and repeat the process. You're likely to find that the position of the roller(s) will change slightly. This is where the fun begins. The film path for ONE situation may not be suitable for the other. You're going to have to fiddle around until you get a postion that satisfies both. It's just one of those things you're going to have to fool around with until it's right. A lot of people aren't willing to spend the time or effort to do this seemingly simple task but I would say that it's the source of a majority of scratched prints. When you have your problem solved, tell your manager that FilmGuard is the thing that's going to save his ass! One of the properties of F.G. is that it hides scratches. If the scratching isn't so severe that the emulsion is disturbed you're likely to find that a good, healthy application of F.G. will make most, if not all, of those scratches disappear! Solve your problem with the scratches, load up some F.G. on the cleaner and run it exclusively on the damaged print during every showing for a couple-three days. Follow all other directions exactly. You will find that the more runs of the F.G. cleaner you put on the film, the better it will be. Geez, if you can run it on that one film for a whole week, all's the better! The only thing I would do differently than the instructions would be to make sure that the pads of the cleaner are good and wet with F.G. After about a 1/2 week, check them and wet them again if they need it. In my opinion, this is the one and only case where extra FilmGuard is a good thing. Just be sure you don't put so much on there that the film won't run correctly through the projector. (You'll get jitters.) That's why I said to wait before resoaking. Do that and, if the scratches aren't so bad that F.G. can't fix them, show the film to your manager again. I guarantee (s)he'll be whistling a different tune!  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 09-27-2003 02:24 PM                     Ken, mid 90's era.  |  IP: Logged Micheal Turlock Film Handler Posts: 9 From: Banff, Alberta, Canada Registered: Sep 2003 posted 09-27-2003 03:24 PM                    Thanks for all the help! Randy - your post will help a lot. The Cleaner is mounted on the projector so it all makes sence. I'll look over those things when I get in. The two prints it happned to were "Pirates of the Caribbean" and "The Order" they have since left the theater so I can't show you what the scratches looked like. I will try to get my hands on a Digital Camera so I can show you pictures of my film path.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-27-2003 03:51 PM                     Also check to make sure there isn't tooo much tensionon the film as it goes through the media  |  IP: Logged Dennis Atkinson Expert Film Handler Posts: 129 From: Birch Run Michigan Registered: Feb 2000 posted 09-28-2003 09:11 AM                        How could black lines/scratches show on screen if Film Gaurd is being used correctly? How dirty is the booth!? Dennis  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 09-28-2003 10:20 AM                        Dennis asked: quote: How could black lines/scratches show on screen if Film Gaurd is being used correctly? A treatment like FilmGuard "hides" scratches by filling them in with a material that has nearly the same optical refractive index as the film, so light isn't scattered by the scratch. But a deep scratch would not be able to be completely filled in, and so will still be visible, although less so. Same principle as "wet gate printing": http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h1/printingP.shtml#wetgate  |  IP: Logged Dennis Atkinson Expert Film Handler Posts: 129 From: Birch Run Michigan Registered: Feb 2000 posted 09-28-2003 02:48 PM                        Thanks John, I knew that. If the film was being treated and the instructions were followed, black lines would be tough to produce. Dennis  |  IP: Logged Mike Carro Film Handler Posts: 67 From: Tempe, Az USA Registered: Nov 1999 posted 09-29-2003 12:01 AM                        This might be a stretch but... could it be it's not scratched at all but merely those nice little lines of filmguard that show up until you've run the print a few times?  |  IP: Logged Greg Mueller Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1687 From: Port Gamble, WA Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-29-2003 10:05 AM                        I was just going to say that Mike... Are you sure these are scratches and not too much Film Guard on the film? On my first run through of a film I always put on a ton of FG because usually the print is pretty crusty when I get it. This CAN give the "look" of having scratches. I always announce to the viewers that I am cleaning the film and these are NOT scratches.  |  IP: Logged System Notices Forum Watchdog / Soup Nazi Posts: 215 Registered: Apr 2004 posted 10-10-2004 03:39 AM                 It has been 376 days since the last post.  |  IP: Logged

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