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Topic: 70mm on the up

John McConnel
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 118
From: Okmulgee, OK USA
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 11-06-2003 08:34 PM

I would like to have had a 5/70 print of MATRIX REVOLUTIONS.
As to digital sound, has Dolby done any work on a 5/70 digital system?

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 11-06-2003 11:05 PM

Has Dolby done any SRD work on 5/70? Not really, at least not outside customized special presentations. With the premieres of "The Lion King" on the giant screen at Radio City Music Hall and the Central Park premiere of "Pocahontas" Disney made 70mm prints, but the sound was coming from a synched 35mm Dolby Digital print.

Dolby and Sony have made no plans to this point in adapting their digital sound processes to 70mm. In the early marketing for those two formats, they pretty much made the claim that 70mm was not needed.

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Paul Linfesty
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1383
From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 11-06-2003 11:41 PM

quote:
"Pocahontas" Disney made 70mm prints, but the sound was coming from a synched 35mm Dolby Digital print.

In the case of Pocahontas, 4 of the 8 prints prepped for the Central Park premiere were "sounded" or mag striped with 6-track Dolby SR Split Surround tracks.

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Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1904
From: Los Angeles, California
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 11-07-2003 12:25 AM

Gordon wrote:

quote:
I beleive one of the bond films plus Independance day palyed 70mm DTS in scandanavia

The Bond movie in question was Tomorrow Never Dies.

These also played in Scandinavia in 70mm-DTS:
Star Wars (1997 Special Edition)
Godzilla
Armageddon
The Lost World: Jurassic Park

Those 007 and Godzilla prints were also shown in Los Angeles (one show each) during a 70mm fest a few years ago. Not sure if they've been shown elsewhere.

Some other films with 70mm-DTS print(s)
Dinosaur
Hello, Dolly!
Lawrence Of Arabia
Lord Jim
Patton
Pearl Harbor
Play Time
The Sound Of Music

and, of course:
Titanic
Vertigo

I've heard rumors about a new print of Those Magnificent Men In Their Flying Machines.

Let us hope there will be others.

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Thomas Hauerslev
Master Film Handler

Posts: 451
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 11-07-2003 12:52 AM

The usual list of titles.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 11-07-2003 05:46 AM

Of course any print with DTS would have been made in the last ten years on print film having very good image stability, and likely very stable polyester film base (Kodak 2386, SO-886, 2383, 2393). So if they are treated well, they should have a very long useful life.

70mm prints made before about 1982 will likely show some fading, especially if they were stored improperly. Mag stripes on triacetate film also made the prints more prone to "vinegar syndrome" if they were stored unvented in a warm/humid environment. Moving these prints to proper (cool/dry/vented) storage conditions now will greatly slow any further degradation. (SMPTE Recommended Practice RP 131).

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Paul H. Rayton
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 210
From: Los Angeles, CA , USA
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 11-10-2003 07:32 PM

I'm (attempting to) attach a few photos of 70mm with DTS timecode, so you can see where the track is, relative to the picture area. This was requested on this thread last week. Of particular interest is the fact that, really, the projected picture can be wider than the with-mag-sound 2.21:1, because the picture area just inside the perforations is now not covered by the mag oxide of tracks 3 and 4.

These frames in these photos used almost the total width, but most theatres would need to re-file aperture plates (at the minimum!) to project a wider picture. The determining factors then become the available screen sheet area, masking travel, and any lens or porthole issues. The samples shown here are from a trailer for "The Truman Show" which ran with "Titanic", which similarly was full-width image on the print.

I'm sending some higher-resolution copies of these illustrations to Brad, which he may post here (I hope) since my computer skills are failing me at the moment for doing a normal connected image upload.

And a correction to my comment of last week that CFI film laboratories are "closed". Oops! Wrong. Their former physical plant on Seward St. in Hollywood is no longer CFI, but the work of CFI, including large format printing and processing, has been moved out to North Hollywood, near Universal Studios, and incorporated into the Technicolor building there. (Technicolor Co. bought the CFI business)

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 11-10-2003 07:46 PM

Most 70mm traps will not support well the print in the gate with the extra width I did some test on a DP70 grinding out the rails and the image got very breathy
Dolby has a patent on SRD for 70mm by the way

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Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1904
From: Los Angeles, California
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 11-10-2003 07:47 PM

quote:
Of particular interest is the fact that, really, the projected picture can be wider than the with-mag-sound 2.21:1, because the picture area just inside the perforations is now not covered by the mag oxide of tracks 3 and 4.

This approach might be beneficial to scope blow-ups but not necessarily with 65mm-originated material which would have likely been composed in camera accounting for the eventual mag stripes on the release print.

quote:
The samples shown here are from a trailer for "The Truman Show" which ran with "Titanic", which similarly was full-width image on the print.

I seem to remember Titanic *not* having a full width image on the print (the printed imagery extending no further than where the specified frame edge and the inner mag stripes normally would meet). And, of course, other DTS-70mm titles (such as Vertigo) were also not full-width.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 11-10-2003 08:45 PM

quote:
I seem to remember Titanic *not* having a full width image on the print (the printed imagery extending no further than where the specified frame edge and the inner mag stripes normally would meet). And, of course, other DTS- 70mm titles (such as Vertigo) were also not full-width.

You remembered correctly. Normal 2:21 aspect ratio for all 70mm dts prints that I've handled.

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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 11-10-2003 09:11 PM

In the 7th edition (1993) of the American Cinematographer Manual, Rob Hummel wrote an article on aspect ratio, blow-ups, etc. in which he maintained that rather than sticking with the 2.2:1 AR of 70mm, a few 35mm to 70mm blowups, such as Superman, The Untouchables and Star Trek IV, maintained the 2.35:1 AR within the 70mm print by burning black above and below the picture. Normally, projected aperture for 70mm is 1.912 x .870. By making the print 1.912 x .816, one can maintain the 2.35:1 AR or 1.912 x .8 will maintain the current 2.39:1 standard.

Not that any of this matters because except for the outside possibility of a few 70mm prints made for restorations of films originally shot on 65mm, I think it's highly unlikely that we'll ever see 70mm/5perf prints again (except for IMAX and special venues) unless either Spielberg or Lucas suddenly decides that this would be a good thing. Since Lucas wants to produce film like television and Spielberg seems to have fallen in love with grain, it's more likely Spielberg will shoot on 16mm than 70mm.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 11-10-2003 10:43 PM

Dolby's patent apparently protects the idea of any 70mm digital sound process which involves stretching the pixels of a 35mm process. I somehow doubt it would stand up to a challenge since the earlier CDS process in 70mm is exactly the same as 35mm CDS except for enlongated pixels. But as it stands Sony would have to get a license from Dolby if they wanted to put SDDS on 70mm film and follow the expedient of simply 1.25X stretching the track. Frankly even without the "prior art" of CDS it seems like an obvious idea.

What may not be obvious at first is that even a process like Dolby Digital using discrete patches of data can be handled the same way. There would be a lot to be said for enlarging the data patches further for greater reliability or redesigning it entirely to use a continous band of data but those considerations aside it is possible to use exactly the same configuration. This simulation has 4 data patches per frame and each is exactly the same as on 35mm except stretched in the direction of film motion by 1.25X on account of greater film speed. The SR•D camera would "see" it exactly the same as the 35mm version and the player would not know the difference.

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Thomas Hauerslev
Master Film Handler

Posts: 451
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 11-11-2003 03:56 AM

DTS 70mm frame

And here´s a chronological premiere list of all 65mm films.

It would be interesting if Variety would compile box office gross for all of them. "The Sound of Music" will probably come out as the most successful of them all.

70mm films will never return to the cinema as it did in the 1960s. Today we have the occasional re-release and heritage to take care of.

[ 11-11-2003, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: Thomas Hauerslev ]

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 11-11-2003 07:36 AM

Hmmm. With Steve's image there we have "Picture Start" and the SMPTE clock aready turning clockwise. Isn't the clock supposed to start at "8"?

Steve

PS, If Kodak were to "prime the pump" I would predict 5/70 would again breath new life. Kodak and the film industry have the most to gain with 70mm. They ought to remind the industry of just how good it really is as compared to all other formats, film or digital.

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Darren Briggs
Master Film Handler

Posts: 371
From: York, UK
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 11-11-2003 07:41 AM

Shamless plug here but very 70mm related. If I have anything to do with it, im trying to put 70mm on the mao here in england, the more shows, the more the studios mught take note of the superiror presentation available in many existing cinemas.
DTS70 the way to go for the future.

City Screen York (England)
Sat 22nd Nov Earthquake in 70mm Sensurround, tickets selling fast

Sun 23rd Nov Krakatoa East of Java, 70mm Cinerama
Earthquake in 70mm Sensurround,

Anyone wishing to attend the show, advisable to book in advance.

Box office 01904 541144
www.picturehouses.co.uk

Cheers
Darren

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