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This topic comprises 4 pages: 1 2 3 4
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Topic: Could digital sound be one of the worst things to happen to theatres?
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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002
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posted 12-21-2003 02:31 PM
quote:
Digital sound for 35mm was, for all intents and purposes, the 'magic bullet' that KILLED the 5-perf 70mm format for theatres.
While digital sound certainly played a role, there were MANY other factors, including but not limited to:
- the consolidation of theater chains
- the rise of real-estate values and the resulting difficulty in achieving profit
- the demise of first-run theaters and the associated first-run marketing concept (show the movie in a few large city theaters first, then roll out to the rest of the country.)
- multiplexes - with much smaller screens
- the emphasis on opening weekend and short runs
- the short film to cable/DVD windows.
And in any case, aside from the fact that relatively few theaters were able to play 70mm (and even fewer of those decently), from 1976 to 1994, there were only about 279 70mm releases (by my count), which averages less than 15 per year. The peak year was 1985 (32 films), a full five years before the advent of digital sound.
I haven't seen ROTK yet, but in my movie attending experience, only on a very few occasions have I ever heard digital drop back to analog and in those cases, it was always at a splice and lasted no more than a second or two. And this includes neighborhood theaters in the boroughs, not just at supposedly decent Manhattan theaters.
IMHO, digital sound has led to a far better overall movie-going experience at theaters because with optical analog, everything really had to be perfect to achieve a decent level of performance (clean, crisp sound with a perceptible high-end and decent separation). With digital, as long as the A-chain is working well enough to not drop out of digital, the sound is usually decent. I think we sometimes forget how decent, until the sound does drop back to analog and we're kind of shocked at the difference.
That's not to say that there isn't a lot of bad digital sound (the same few theaters that I would usually attend to see 35mm analog or 70mm mag are pretty much the same theaters I'll go to see digital sound films). And it's true that my best theater experiences were 70mm 6-tk mag. But even if we still didn't have digital sound for theaters, I still don't think that we'd be seeing much in the way of 70mm, although ROTK is probably one series of films that would have been released in 70mm.
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Dominic Case
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 131
From: Sydney NSW Australia
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 12-21-2003 11:42 PM
OK, here's a word from the labs (yes I work in one AND I follow film-tech!).
It's not a question of the labs "rushing things" or getting greedy. It's a question of the time we are given to make prints. As you've probably noticed, releases are wider and wider these days, and with an increasing number of world-wide simultaneous releases. The labs are expanding their facilities as fast as they can be built, but we still only get literally a few days to complete orders of up to several thousand prints. To make it worse, there are often last-minute editorial or visual effects changes long after the film should have been locked off, so we are still waiting on a negative for one spool when complete copies should already be shipping.
That's why the theatres receive their prints so late (another pet theme on film-tech), and why QCing is so difficult. Reprinting copies simply means that the order will be shipped later still. Believe it or not, labs really are putting in more and more systems to try to prevent any errors or at least pick them up while there's still time.
That's where the move to cyan dye analogue tracks will be a big advantage, if the distributors ever follow through on it. One of the biggest time-losers and reasons for reprinting reels is faulty redevloper application on the analogue track. That will be eliminated when there's no need for redevelopment. Also, to bring it back to the original point of this thread, it will renew the need for theatres to instal the correct analogue system (red LED reader). This thread proves that the "we don't need to change the analogue system, we play digital" argument won't wash.
Finally, why are there frequently problems with digital sound, but rarely problems with picture, as someone asked? Simple - minor errors in picture (colour cast, slight slippage, dirt, or any number of projector misalignments) cause a slight deterioration. Lesser problems in digital systems correct themselves, giving a perfect result. However, equivalent problems cause catastrophic failure of the system. With digital, you can't be "a little bit off". It's either perfect or non-existent.
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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 12-22-2003 02:45 AM
I was a projectionist for a major 20-plex first run cinema that utilized all three digital formats, at least one format per screen at any one time. Consequently, rarely were digital formats swapped between screens, rather prints were swapped on almost a daily basis.
While the digital formats can provide some awesome sound, this theatre would have been at a major loss w/o analog to back-up each screen!
More often than not, the notorius SDDS would skip in and out of digital. Occasionally, we would have SRD problems, and in many cases we would show "sneak previews" and special runs prior to the "official" release date and the needed DTS discs would not have been sent with the print!
What I found is this: if a print skips in and out of digital on a regular basis, then run the print in analog until the technical problem, whatever it may be, is resolved. If you have a properly maintained and aligned analog system, chances are the audience will not notice. As a projectionist, sometimes I would be forced to run a digital print in analog due to a technical problem. I would then make it my business to ask patrons comming out of the problem theatre at shows end for their opinion of sound quality, and rarely did they notice that the print was in analog! What they would notice, and subsequently complain to management about, is if a print would skip between digital and analog...which is always very noticeable!
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Thomas Procyk
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1842
From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 12-22-2003 12:15 PM
Okay, my turn I guess...
In my opinion, it may not be the lab's fault or the theater's fault or the projectionists' fault all the time. Usually it's corporate's or management's.
I've worked at a few places where we would get a horrible reel or two in a print, first-run. Sometimes the SRD track was printed a few mm off of the sprockets, or there was a milky "rain" effect on the image. Any requests to management to arrange for a replacement reel was either ignored or denied because "we don't want any trouble with the studio" or "they'll think we did it and charge us." ![[Mad]](mad.gif) WTF?!?! We got the print TODAY! It would take us AT LEAST a week to reprint the SRD track incorrectly! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) Same would happen if we informed them we didn't get the DTS discs, or that they were damaged. So we would end up running prints that would drop out of digital, or be forced to play in analog. Luckily, all our analog systems were up to par at the time. And God forbid the projectionist call Technicolor themselves with the number conveniently printed on the film cans -- that got one of our projectionists a write-up!!!
Then you got these control freaks who MUST do the auditorium assignments and NO ONE can question their placement. Even if a DTS-only print is going into a Dolby house or vice-versa, that didn't matter because their decisions were based on "the flow of traffic into the lobby." Nevermind the two houses are across the hall from each other. Projectionists should have the final say in ALL auditorium assignments in my opinion. And ESPECIALLY none of this "auditorium assignments were decided by the blue-haired dick that sits behind oak desk in Ducktown, Mississippi and who's never been to our theater" crap.
As for digital sound killing 70mm, I don't think that was directly the case. The need for dual-inventory prints is what killed 70mm. Any multiplex theater running a 70mm print of something needed a 35mm "backup" for when the print moved to the smaller house. When digital sound came out, (at least, digital sound after CDS) it was seen as a way to eliminate the need for dual-inventory = less money spent.
When Regal was building the flagship I started my "theater career" at, I asked them if they were installing any 70mm setups for their huge screens. I was told that it was too much hassle, that with the current advances in 35 (whatever those advances may be) there was no need for it, and that it was a greater cost that wouldn't generate any more profit. Hell, we were the only game in town with stadium seating! We didn't need 70mm to bring the people in... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
=TMP=
Happy Holidaze!
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Jack Ondracek
Film God
Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 12-22-2003 12:52 PM
quote:
Projectionists should have the final say in ALL auditorium assignments in my opinion. And ESPECIALLY none of this "auditorium assignments were decided by the blue-haired dick that sits behind oak desk in Ducktown, Mississippi and who's never been to our theater" crap.
Well, as an owner (blue-haired dick, I guess) and a projectionist, I can't say that I totally agree with you there.
Auditorium placement is a lot more complicated than whether the print fits the booth equipment. However, I would say that a manager (or whoever does make the placement decision) should be informed enough about the booth so that, in addition to other considerations, a print is run on equipment that can best reproduce its capabilities when possible.
At my theatre, consideration for placement include the obvious seating capacity issues, as well as the visual impact of the film. If other considerations were a toss-up, pictures like "Master and Commander", "Last Samurai" and the current "LOTR" would get more points for presentation on our largest screen. As much as possible, we also tend to keep pictures that draw a lot of children close to the lobby, so they don't have to go past any more doors than necessary. Our place is 20 years old, kids tend to be "verbally ebulent", and double door entrances weren't common then. As for sound, we're all digital now, so that's not a prime factor, but before we were, it would be part of the mix, depending on how the priorities landed.
These are issues that are more commonly on the mind of the manager... or should be. In any case, setting those priorities and making a screen placement decision is not something I would hand over to the projectionist. I was thinking about back when I was in some of the SRO booths in Seattle back in the '70s. I don't think that the idea that a manager would ask me what screen to put a print in would have occured! Most of them have such little authority anymore that it's highly unlikely they'd cede any to a booth operator.
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