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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Zooming in movies - useless and annoying or not? (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: Zooming in movies - useless and annoying or not?
Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-07-2004 10:56 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My Dad taught me to use his 8mm movie camera when I was about 10 years old. His rules were:

  • Only zoom in/out once per shot.
  • Never begin or end a shot with a zoom. Always hold the shot before cutting.
  • Never have two or more successive shots with zooms.
  • Never break the plane of the action with the camera, lest you cause the actors to seem to change places on the screen.
  • All the above goes for pans, tilts and trucks.
As for "fluid camera". I don't care for it unless it's so subtile that the viewer doesn't notice it.
There are some camera guys who are really good at framing up a shot and moving around with fluid camera so that the viewer's eye naturally follows the points of interest on the screen.
Example: Let's imagine a scene where a police detective is interrogating a suspect. The camera shows a medium close-up of the detective trying to pry information out of the suspect he knows is guilty. There's a clock on the wall in the background. The viewer's eye is attracted to it so as to notice the time. This is good fluid camera in action. The camera man has attracted your attention to the clock in order to give the impression of passing time... The detective and the suspect are spending hours sparring back and forth. The fluid camera & clock device punctuate the battle of wits. Chances are you won't even notice the device because the movement of the camera is so subtile. Maybe the camera didn't move hardly at all. Properly done, it might only take a slight focus shift to the background and back to the foreground to make the viewer notice the time.

Compare that to a fluid camera shot where the camera follows virtually no discernable pattern or rhyme & reason. It just looks like the camera man is high or something. It's crap.

I think this should be added to my Dad's rules:
  • Only one fluid camera shot in every so many shots.

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Chris Hipp
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1462
From: Mesquite, Tx (east of Dallas)
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted 02-08-2004 02:14 AM      Profile for Chris Hipp   Email Chris Hipp   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The original Judgement at Nurenburg had a lot of zooming in on faces
Been a while since I have seen it but didn't it zoom in when it changed from German to English?

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 02-08-2004 04:37 AM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I seem to remember vaguely reading that zooming was not really an option in many of the new widescreen formats in the 50s but in the mid 60s it became technically possible due to some improvements made by Panavision. And indeed, a lot of late 60s-early 70s movies zoom like hell. For instance, "Death in Venice", there is so much zooming that you could become seasick.

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Matt Frankish
Film Handler

Posts: 8
From: Croydon,Surrey, / Uk, Uk
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted 02-08-2004 06:32 AM      Profile for Matt Frankish     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Has anyone seen Oliver Stone's Commandante? It's an interview with Castro, and it managed to make me leave off watching it in disgust - it has the most annoying camera style I have ever seen, and I've seen Moulin Rouge!

Why do they think that a sudden fast zoom into someones ear, for example, adds anything to what is being said? It's a documentary, and an interview with someone who has some very interesting things to share. Why would I want a fast-cutting montage of alternate B&W and colour close-ups of his feet? Why?

Rant ends...

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Liam Utley
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Australia
Registered: Oct 2003


 - posted 02-08-2004 06:40 AM      Profile for Liam Utley     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greg Anderson made a good point. Do you think that changes in technology ie - pixel problems, would be enough to dictate how cinematographers shot movies? Surely there is no substitute for keeping the camera still though.

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John Anastasio
Master Film Handler

Posts: 325
From: Trenton, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 02-08-2004 07:04 AM      Profile for John Anastasio   Author's Homepage   Email John Anastasio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I forbid my production students to use a zoom unless there's a specific dramatic reason for the shot...and then they'll have to defend it. When I demonstrate the wonderful sense of depth you get from dollying a camera instead of zooming in or out, they're usually amazed. When it's used properly, a zoom can be very effective, but it's over-used and improperly used, usually just for the sake of convenience. The shaky camera technique is also annoying. It was originally designed to make it look like "actuality" style shooting, but sometimes it's so obviously faked that it's sickening. If one of my students comes in with a shakey, hand-held zoom-and-pan production,full of medium shots all done from eye level and looking like "The Blair Witch Project", I send them right back to do it all again. John Ford had a great idea....get it lit properly, lock the camera down and let the movement take place inside the frame, then edit it to make it seamless.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-08-2004 09:40 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Early front element anamorphic attachments were focal length specific and zoom anamorphics had to wait till jacobson came out with the rear element anamorphic adapter with taylor hobson

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 02-08-2004 10:04 AM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Most over-used zooms in the history of motion pictures: oriental chop-socky movies!

Most-annoying zoom practice: the combo dolly-in, zoom out shot (first used in JAWS).

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 02-08-2004 07:07 PM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Most-annoying zoom practice: the combo dolly-in, zoom out shot (first used in JAWS).
Gotta call ya on that one Tim. Jaws was most definitely not the first use of that kind of zoom shot (see the Vertigo reference above for a much earlier use).

I don't care for the way most zooms are done these days either. Especially on a big screen. They cheapen the look of the production to me.

There was a great comment made about NYPD Blue's "nervous" camerawork back when Jimmy Smits first joined the cast. The cast change was made in part due to actor's salaries. The comment: "Good. With the money they're saving maybe they can buy Shaky The Cameraman a tripod."

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Mike Babb
Master Film Handler

Posts: 250
From: Norwich UK
Registered: Jul 2002


 - posted 02-08-2004 10:41 PM      Profile for Mike Babb   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Babb   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I ran a trailer recently for test(sorry, can't remember which one)and it had a simulated film jam/bonanza effect.

Also the zooming I hate specifically is when a conversation is between a person in the foreground and background and the focus jumps back and forth with the dialogue, never fails to generate a complaint.

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James Robertson
Film Handler

Posts: 40
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: May 2001


 - posted 02-08-2004 11:46 PM      Profile for James Robertson   Email James Robertson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Quote

." Anyone who does any camera work on NYPD Blue sucks ass and should be skinned, set on fire, and then sprayed with acid. It's that simple. I see it in a lot of commercials too. "

Joe

In defense of camera operators on shows such as N.Y.P.D the style of shooting is very much dictated by the director and unfortunately "wobblescope" as it's known in the trade was/is very popular as the theory is that it imparts a sense of immediacy and rawness. I agree with you though and think it's a pain in the arse.
]
Jim

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Claude S. Ayakawa
Film God

Posts: 2738
From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 02-08-2004 11:58 PM      Profile for Claude S. Ayakawa   Author's Homepage   Email Claude S. Ayakawa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Although I did not notice any zoom effects in "THE BLAIR WITCH PROJECT", the thing that made me dislike that film very much among many other reasons was the constant hand held camera movements.
I can see why unnecessary camera lens zooming in a movie scene can be unnerving but if done well and there is a purpose, I have no problem with that.

-Claude

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 02-09-2004 07:03 AM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I seem to remember MTV being the reason for shaky camerawork.

Another reason to hate MTV: Superbowl, and shaky camerawork.

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Robert E. Allen
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1078
From: Checotah, Oklahoma
Registered: Jul 2002


 - posted 02-10-2004 03:04 PM      Profile for Robert E. Allen   Email Robert E. Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I remember when zoom lenses first came out in the 60s and they were so overused that, for me, it became annoying, especially the fast zooms. I'd rather see a dolly in or out shot. I wasn't aware that anyone was still using zoom lenses. Hey!, maybe "Smellavision" will make a comeback.

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Christian Appelt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 505
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Registered: Dec 2001


 - posted 02-10-2004 05:10 PM      Profile for Christian Appelt   Email Christian Appelt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Scott Norwood wrote:
quote:
Zooming is especially annoying in "period" films, since high quality zoom lenses are a fairly recent development. A film set in, say, the 1930s really shouldn't use zooms at all.
Kubrick did it in BARRY LYNDON, and IMHO it worked fine. But I know what you mean, and few other directors have the taste of Kubrick and the technical perfection. And he NEVER pans or tilts the camera while zooming, he goes from one perfect composition to another.

I dislike most zooming, but it can become a great storytelling tool when you really know how to use it. If you remember THE SHINING, there is a great scene in which Scatman Crothers gets a "shining" vision of the bad things happening at the Overlook hotel. Kubrick does the scene in three consecutive slow zoom shots, and it works great and looks by no means artificial.
These are zoom #1 and #2:

 -
 -
 -
 -
 -
 -
 -

Zoom #3 goes from a Medium Shot to a very tight closeup of Crother's face when his expressions changes to shock (because of his vision). In three zooms Kubrick introduces the character at home, anticipates his later death by showing two altar-like picture compositions and focuses the attention on the vision when it starts. To me that's brilliant filmmaking.

Oh, and IIRC the first anmorphic zoom lens was not made by Panavision, but by a French company under the trade name "FranScope". Jan Jacobsen's UltraScope zoom was second, but it started with quite a long focal length (about 76mm, I think) while the FranScope began at 40mm wide angle. I will look it up these days.

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